Discussion in 'Match Day' started by ROCCO, Nov 27, 2020.
Good man, me too and not for the first time either.
My take on it is if the ball is in movement i.e. left the foot of the player passing forward, and the attacker moves forward beyond the defence after that motion, that cannot be offside??! Surely that is the rule ??
As millie said. Falling out with game we love
You say the offsides part with such certainty Mick but I just can't agree, they've set it up to be complete precision yet it's still a person selecting the exact moment the ball was played and then including the lines as best they can judge, it's still got a degree of human influence and I think a marginal call like today's could certainly be influenced by a VAR person erring on one side or the other. My own opinion is that offsides just needed to not be very obviously wrong or they were fine, it works in rugby without any of the lines, it's just a quick look to make sure it's not obviously wrong.
I think we both were very much in favour of VAR as we both naively believed that this was the end of the nonsense and it should have been but I honestly believe they've intentionally butchered it to keep the influence that a ref could have on the game as high as possible. We probably shouldn't be surprised.
Losing another player to injury is the last thing we needed.
That aside, VAR is causing more problems than it's solving - when there's marginal decisions about a player being off side, as there was today with Salah, advantage should be given to the attacking team, IMHO.
Our midfield weren't great, first half, but Hendo certainly helped matters when he came on.
Defensively, we'll continue to struggle for much of this season, so I'm almost at the stage where I wonder if it's even worth mentioning, anymore? Maybe we just need to focus on scoring more goals than we let in, every game?
Not sure I agree with the Salah sub, and it was clear that he didn't, but that said, Mane did well when he came on and I do appreciate the need to manage Salah's return from illness.
Jota once again did the business for us - he's proving to be a real God-send,this season.
Given our injuries, we're very fortunite to be where we are in the PL, and in time, we'll have some players coming back from injury, who may then help make a real impact for us, given that some of our first team regulars will be much fresher than their counterparts at rival clubs. That may make a big difference, as we head into the second half of the season (although so would buying a quality CB, as we should have done last summer) .
Even at that pal, some of the offsides are guess work. They have changed the rules it seems about body parts. Sometimes the lines are not even straight or when the ball is kicked.
It’s Amateur. Honestly think they should bin VAR and put chips in players boots for offside with some sort of sensors on the sides of the pitch. The attackers boot has to be ahead of the defenders to be offside. A bit like the goal line technology, no ifs, buts or maybes (unless it’s the goal at Villa last season where the watch broke). Anything that is open to interpretation is always going to be flawed. It’s opinion based.
Needed a few hours to calm down after that. Terrible 1st half, better when hendo came on. Not going to ramble on but I am fastly starting to despise this new way of football.
Cant celebrate a goal, offside by a shoe lace, penalty kicks given after extreme slow motion replays, if its not obvious, it ain't a foul. I'm so close to just saying fxuk it.
In a normal game Brighton would have deserved that point and going on the 90min they probably did.
But here we are again instead of debating the ins and outs of a game were discussing a clearly broken system. Its got to a point the car and the refs are becoming the talking points instead of the teams and the game, its not ruining the game it has it ruined full stop.
I really hope we Start getting a break soon wit these injuries as its getting ridiculous now.
All these set backs and we’re still top. Once our luck turn and we get some players back we will kick on. I guess neco start the next couple of games . Hopefully Trent isn’t too far away.
Its not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing mate. That VAR is working with offsides exactly as it was intended is correct. Its not 100% accurate but they knew it wouldn't be. Goal line technology isnt 100% accurate either. VAR for offside is as accurate as it can be,which is many times more accurate than the human eye can be in normal time.
Its not a person selecting the exact moment the ball is played,he uses the first frame which shows contact with the ball. Despite people talking about "guesswork", he's not guessing. Salah was standing still when the ball was played so the chances he wasn't offside are miniscule because its the fraction of a second between the frame where Firminos foot hasn't yet touched the ball and the one where it has, where the inaccuracy can exist but that possible inaccuracy will be down to players movement between that fraction of second.
The pictures we see on the screen that people are so fond of sharing to prove it's not offside are very often misleading. They are 2D pictures of a 3D situation and unless the camera taking take picture is exactly in line with the last defender which it almost never is,then its useless.When VAR judged the ball was played,Salah was definitely offside. So was Mane at Everton,so was Firmino at Villa last season,so was that Wolves player against us.
What part of offside VAR do you think isn't working exactly how its supposed to?
The lines are always perfectly straight mate. If they don't look like it,that's down to depth perception and the camera angle. The rule changes about body parts are not a VAR issue,it just changes the point where the line goes. For instance that Mane was offside against Everton this season and wouldn't of been last season,is not down to VAR,its down to the rules. Its not amateur,its increased the accuracy of offside decisions hugely. If anything its proved how many they were getting wrong. One of my biggest frustrations with the reaction to VAR has been that people seem to be most upset with the part of it thats working how its supposed to. If people don't want it because in some cases it makes you wary of celebrating,then I understand that but when it comes to VAR not working,its the wrong thing to be focusing on.
I think a lot of people are feeling like that. Not being able to celebrate goals properly is a big problem. A Var offside call should be almost instant. The officials see the pic and if its not obviously offside then it's onside. No drawing lines or using toes etc, just the decision we couldn't really have argued with had an assistant ref made it during the game
But the pictures are often misleading mate and you're basically saying offside decisions should be dependent on a camera angle. Use it or don't use it but to use less accurate technology would be crazy. And it wouldn't solve the celebrating problem,you'd still be wary of it being chalked off in the review.
Whatever it is if there isn't a quicker way of using it or a rule that gets rid of this nonsense of toes or armpits being offside I think they should bin it.
I'n principal I would be for the correct decision being made but they're not even doing that. They've also changed offside and are giving offsides that an assistant ref wouldn't give
I completely understand your first point. If people don't want technology used in decision making then fair enough. Its definitely made football less enjoyable in England. Your second point though I don't get. Are you saying they're giving decisions a linesman can't see or decisions he just wouldn't give? The first one is the point of VAR and the second one would be one of the main reasons it was introduced. Either way you can't have VAR and not use it to be as accurate as possible with decisions like offside. If it stays(and I'm pretty sure it will because most other countries just seem to be getting on with things) then from what I'm reading,we're a year or two from the tiny margin of error becoming even smaller.
Goal line technology can be far more precise because the goal line doesn't move and it doesn't require human input on a split second basis to pick where the ball has left a players foot and to then correctly place two lines for the final part of the attacking player and the defending player, that's three manual inputs requiring a person to make a determination.
I'm not saying VAR isn't doing what they intended it to do but I think they're just using it incorrectly, it should be there to pick out an obvious mistake. Get a thicker line that builds in a margin of error and place that on the defender, if the attacker is obviously ahead of that then it's offside, at the moment they're finding problems where football didn't have problems in the past, if it's obviously wrong then fix it, if it's a millimeter offside determined by a person using their best judgement on three very exact moments then it was never a problem in the game. I'm surprised to see you arguing so vehemently for something on a principle of that it's doing what they wanted it to do instead of whether it's actually improved anything, I like the idea of the offside checks but I'd make it a much quicker and less of a total scrutiny to find a way to rule out a goal.
The reason I'm more upset about the offside is because they've actually gone out of their way to make it worse, they always made a balls of everything else so they're just doing the same there now they've slowed everything down for offside and ruling out goals that were never a problem for the game.
They have also removed "level" from the laws. Well technically they haven't but the chances of 2 silhouettes being identical on a football pitch must be 1 in billion.
Interestingly I spelt silhouettes so wrong first time my autocorrect adjusted it to shitballs. Great word I've never heard before but it fits very well.
Well let's go back Ed,I said something that you expressed surprise of my certainty about which you now agree with me on.
The goalposts have now moved to my vehement defence of something when I've said numerous times I completely understand people not wanting it based on the fact it hasn't improved things overall,I'm now in agreement with those people. I still think it could have improved things overall,but the culture in England made sure it couldn't. But when it comes to offside it has improved the accuracy of decisions by a long way and while I agree thats taken something a way from fans,I find it baffling that its a reason to criticise how VAR is being implemented,because as we now both agree,its the one place where its working as its designed to.
The frame chosen for when the ball is played will be the same no matter who the VAR is so that's not guesswork. They pick the first frame that shows contact with the ball. There isn't two manual lines inputted either. They use the technology to pinpoint which relevant body part is further forward on the defender or the atttacker,using the crosshairs when necessary. The technology draws both of the lines from there. Its incredibly precise. As I understand it,the margin of error comes from the possibility that the ball has been played earlier than the cameras could capture. Given the cameras work at 50 frames a second,I fail to see how inaccuracy is an argument against using it. The point about goalline technology is if VAR not being perfect for offside is a reason to bin it,then I we could use the same argument for goal line technology. To clarify(as making a non binary point on here these days seem to need clarification a lot)I'm not saying there's not perfectly logical reasons for not using it for offside and simply being the most accurate isn't on its own, the only factor. But saying "yes,this gets far more decisions correct than any other method,but its not perfect so we should change to a less accurate method of using VAR for offside" ,as you seem to be suggesting,sounds crazy to me.
How does taking a defined point,and replacing it with another defined but arbitrary one make things better? You still have the situation where fans are wary of celebrating,and you're still dealing in millimetres just from a different point. Rules on which body part makes you offside apart,which isn't a VAR issue,I honestly don't think there's a better way to use this technology for offside. Keep it or bin it and go back to the old way,but if we're using it its the one place its being used as it should.
What I mean by Amateur is the way they draw the lines on the screen. It looks like a 12 years starting technical drawing for the first time. A couple of decisions I have seen it almost looks like the lines are thicker in some games than others. Maybe that is just me but in my opinion it would be better to go with a smarter system for offsides. I think it could be automated like Goal Line technology. A couple of lads I work with could probably write a routine to do better than it currently is. In some cases they are hashing about for 3 to 4 minutes. It’s a joke. If you think that is the way forward for the game, its going to turn more and more people off. I know a few lads who would be run of the mill fans of PL and they have hardly watched a game this season. The lack of fans or atmosphere is one reason but the biggest one is that VAR is just making the game robotic. Think the first LFC game that Had VAR was a West Brom FA Cup game. Remember thinking this thing is the beginning of the end for the game as we know it, but it’s been 100% worse. The lack of celebrating a goal is massive but it also have impacted the ebb and flow of the game.
Saw another post that mentioned in Italy they use us sparingly where as in the PL, any excuse to go to it. I think that Robbo one yesterday in first 10 mins is not even looked at but when it’s near the end everything is looked a million times. Would be very interesting to see some stats about time periods of games VAR is used, I would say majority are last quarter.
The thickness of the lines have no relevance to the decision mate. They're only as thick as they are for the TV audience. The PL made the decision to show far more of the process than other leagues do,that was a big mistake. We're 2 years in and people are still using what they see in that time to spread conspiracy theories and people are often guided by what they feel rather than whats actually happening. Look how many people claim they would be far more accepting of off sides if a margin of error was factored in. That's what is happening in Holland but it makes no material difference,it just moves the line And the exact same issues are there. And its in the process of being automated,the technology hasn't been available. As for me thinking what's happening is the way forward for the game, I'll just have to accept that no matter how many times I say this isn't what I want,its going to be ignored because I don't have a binary view.
I think you're spot on about how its being used far too often in games,which is in contradiction to how they said it would be used. Not a chance that penalty from yesterday gets given in the early days of VAR and it shouldn't have been given yesterday.