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VAR watch

Discussion in 'Football Chat' started by Dub13, Mar 4, 2018.

  1. babbsnads

    babbsnads
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    The Premier league moving towards the Dutch model next season according to the headlines. Can't read exactly what it will be because the only article I've seen is paywalled,but if the 5cm lines touch, it will still be onside. I think it's purely about people's feelings as all it does is move the line 10 centimetres and it will still be measured to shoulders or whatever,leaving players millimetres over the margin of error and offside, but if it makes people complain less then fuck it. Of course the situation in Holland means you can be up to 10 centimetres onside and if the linesman has disallowed the goal,it stays disallowed, but they're going to stop showing the process, we'll just get the decision which is something I'm fine with, but let's see how people react to it. With many I'm guessing they won't react well.
     
  2. GaryMc

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    I believe Holland they take one or two looks and decide, none of the stencil rubbish.
     
  3. babbsnads

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    I don't know about Holland although that doesn't sound right as how can you have a 10 centimetre margin of error without measuring the point of offside but either way I don't think they will be the case in the premier league. It will be done the same as it has been only we won't get to see the process. If the offside is within the margin of error(the lines touch)the goal will stand. I'm all for not seeing the process at this stage and just getting the verdict although I'm not sure how the "that line isn't straight" conspiracy theorists will react to what they'll see as secrecy.
     
  4. babbsnads

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    Here's an explanation of the Dutch model.

     
  5. edcarroll02

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    Much better system moving to this dutch system and hopefully that will improve matters on the field. Get rid of the definite offsides and leave the miniscule decisions out of it, I'd have gone more than the 5cms but this is a better system than the current one.
     
  6. babbsnads

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    I can understand why people might feel better about a margin of error even if I don't think making people feel better about a definitive issue like offside should ne a concern, but it baffles me why anybody thinks the way to address the fact VAR is not 100% accurate on offsides is to make it less accurate. Imo the way it was being used is the only way to use it or you don't use it at all,because that was the most accurate way.
     
  7. edcarroll02

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    All I ever thought the game needed was a check to make sure a player wasn't very obviously offside or viva versa, in that linesman hasn't made a poor decision. I couldn't care less if a players armpit is 1cm past the last defender, it was never an issue in the game and the nonsense with it was making the game less enjoyable which is what the game is about for fans. Something so universally hated in the game can never be good for it
     
  8. babbsnads

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    Yeah,that makes very little sense to me pal beyond wanting your feelings validated when it comes to offside decisions. Wanting an arbitrary distance where a player could be offside before technology should get involved defeats the practical purpose of VAR intervention imo. Either there was a problem with incorrect offside decisions or there wasn't. If there was a problem and the answer is to use technology to improve the accuracy, then you try to be as accurate as possible. If theres no problem then you just don't use it. Staying onside is a skill but so is catching people offside and it's a law already massively skewed towards attackers both with the way the laws are made,and with the laws of physics. Its changed now though and its the same for everyone so I'll accept the new rules. The line has moved so if your past that line you're offside. But I'm pretty sure a lot who wanted this change will still have problems with it. A part of me is curious to see what those problems will be because I'm pretty sure it's still going to be hated,all we'll have done is made the process less accurate and the season after we'll be back to no margin of error because the new more accurate technology will come in.
     
  9. edcarroll02

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    Mick I think you're the only man who liked VAR and is still staunchly defending it, we don't see eye to on this at all so let's see how next season goes and hopefully we'll see less discussion about VAR for offsides and then we'll know it's been a successful change.
     
  10. babbsnads

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    We'll just scoot by the little bit of passive aggressiveness there Ed as we both know I've consistently said VAR has been a shit show and I've admitted loads of times it's made football worse. It doesn't mean I can't challenge the logic of changing to this method. You say the success of the change will be measured by whether theres a reduction in VAR conversations about offside, that is us seeing eye to eye because you agree it's about validating peoples feelings. Those centimetres aren't going to change an attackers behaviour so being 1 centimetre or 10 centimetres offside will still come down to luck.

    Where we disagree is whether we should be making the process less accurate to achieve that goal even though I really hope that goal is achieved because if we're going along with the theory that 9 centimetres offside shouldn't be offside,but 10 centimetres should, it really needs to achieve that. If it is being used exactly like the Dutch model, I will have a little chuckle the first time an obviously onside goal stays disallowed because its within the margin of error,as long as it's not at our expense.
     
  11. edcarroll02

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    Success of the new system will be whether it speeds up the decisions, stops issues where we're seeing goals ruled out by ridiculous marginal calls that aren't actually an issue. People get upset because the system isn't working correctly, if a fall out of the system being improved is that people's feelings are improved then that's great.
     
  12. babbsnads

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    I'm just repeating your own argument back to you mate.

    Will it speed things up? I don't know because to have an arbitrary point where somebody becomes offside,the actual point of offside will still have to be measured. Only 4 of the 15 goals disallowed by VAR in the first half of last season would have stood under the new method. That's 4 incidents in about 180 matches.


    And it's not correct to say the system wasn't working correctly. Offside is the one area where it was working as intended. The unintended consequence is people decided players being offside is not an issue as long as they're only offside by a distance acceptable to them. That nobody knows what that distance is is imo going to result in more unintended consequences with the new method but we'll see I suppose.

    But it's only for 1 season so hopefully it results in a better experience for fans.
     
  13. bobby benitez

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    You are being facetious with bit highlighted. The (foolish) people that wanted it in the first place wanted correct decisions, they didn't think through the consequences, they thought of Sterlings offside at City in 2014 and the likes of that.

    A bit like Brexit they didn't dive deep into the detail because if they did the conclusions would have been obvious. The recent polls now show the vast majority of people that wanted it would bin it immediately, personally I'd take one case of daylight robbery every season in exchange for getting rid of it.
     
  14. babbsnads

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    You'd have a point if we were talking about VAR in general but we're not,we're talking specifically about offsides and that point you're saying is facetious is not facetious at all. The only consequences of the system regarding offside is people whining about goals being disallowed for offside,and it was a consequence I was always happy to accept. It's people whove suddenly realised how offside works who didn't realise that using technology to apply the offside law would mean very marginal offsides. I also remember meeting a lot of resistance to my point that the officials were cheats, some of it from you but VAR has seen you come around to my way of thinking so it hasn't been a total waste as its opened your eyes on that score. I wont say it was foolish of you not to recognise that as early as I did Bob,we all have our different strengths.

    As for comparing the situation to Brexit while claiming my point was facetious? Alannis Morrisette wants a word.
     
  15. Roll on 19

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    A comment that stood out to me in this whole discussion/debate - "staying onside is a skill". In theory thats correct. In reality a forward player can no longer line himself up on "the shoulder" of the defender because his toe/shirt sleeve or any of the other silly things we see them measuring off may be beyond the defender. Now the striker to be sure of being onside is lining himself (or herself) a foot...2 feet..a yard? further back.
    There was another comment questioning the "advantage to the attacker" brigade and I couldnt agree more. Why should the attacker have the benefit of the doubt? Similarly why should the defender have it?

    To be honest I'd much rather them sort out their cameras as to when first/last contact is made on a ball.
    Ive said this before, but if some dude on the back of a boat can take 15 pictures of a shark leaping from the water in under a second why cant multi billion organizations figure out when exactly a player touched a ball, or if he in fact touched it at all without turning my TV screen into something that looks like a 5 year old was let loose with an Etch-a-Sketch
     
  16. vodkacolly

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    I think the original idea was that it would result in more goals and more exciting games.

    Btw, I admire your passion for sharks. Using them as an analogy in a discussion about var/offside is impressive.
    More shark analogies please!
     
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  17. Roll on 19

    Roll on 19
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    LOL I was literally watching one of the Air Jaws on tv while typing and the biologist was waxing lyrical about his spiffy new camera that takes 15 frames per second
     
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  18. bobby benitez

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    You have lost me here Mick, I don't know what you're referring too. I remember you used to harp on about managing games, ie a ref not booking someone in the first minute. We disagreed about describing that as cheating and the necessitaty of it at all. Nothing has changed with that because of VAR and my opinion of it hasn't changed either, I assume yours hasn't either.
     
  19. babbsnads

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    If you thought they were cheats all along Bob,then my apologies. That isn't my recollection but I could be wrong. If you didn't think they were cheats before VAR came along,then you have changed your opinion. My opinion on them being cheats hasn't changed because it's been confirmed,but my opinion on VAR has changed. I wanted it because I knew they were cheats and thought it would force them to be honest. I was wrong.
     
  20. edcarroll02

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    Can't wait to see the lines on that one in the Spain game. Looked offside for sure to me.
     

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