The budget!!

[locallad]

What can we expect from this today!!! Is it more bad news or will there finally be something to be happy about:confused::confused:

[Rover 609]

What can we expect from this today!!! Is it more bad news or will there finally be something to be happy about:confused::confused:




Collective site groan!more bad news,markets collapse,uefa bring out voodoo doll to SM LFC fans again,biff and barney to mullock the middle classes.:(:(

[Paul]

What can we expect from this today!!! Is it more bad news or will there finally be something to be happy about:confused::confused:

The only way you'll be better off after this budget is if you're on the dole.

[liverbird!!]

Big Speech just about to start on Radio 1 drive time.

Expect to be shafted!!!:mad:

[Fowler's God]

We're all going to be screwed after today. Food prices, drink, cigarettes and electricity/fuel, paying more taxes. Bad times. Anyone on the dole before this recession hit are the ones who need to take a look at themselves..anyone who has lost their job recently who have mortages to pay I sympathise and hope this budget is not harsh on them...

[mypost]

I used to call the Finance Minister "Scrooge", for the timing of his budget. Can't use that label now. :(

[bryanod]

well they're all taking a 10% pay cut, higher taxes on those well off.


but don't let that get in a way of a moan when deficit is stil 6.5% because they're too scared to make decent changes which are needed.

[Fowler's God]

well they're all taking a 10% pay cut

It should be more, as their performance since in power under Bertie and post Berties has been a shambles.

[RedWally]

Is it just me or is the budget tamer than expected for the regular PAYE person? I know there is a 1% levy on salary.

EDit: Uh oh - he's only taking tax now! :(

[liverbird!!]

Is it just me or is the budget tamer than expected for the regular PAYE person? I know there is a 1% levy on salary.

Not over yet mate,

Its coming now!

[Paddser]

Cigarettes up 50 Cent, Petrol up 8 cent a litre. Beer/Cider: No change

[mypost]

Airfare tax applies from the end of March, ranging from €2-10 for travelling over to watch games.

[RedWally]

Vat up .5% - will hit everything.

Tax back on med1 down to lower rate.

[mrpotatohead]

Vat up .5% - will hit everything.


Holy crap, as if the VAT wasnt high enough as it was!!

[liverbird!!]

Married couple tax band increased by extra €2,000
or €1,000 single

[Fowler's God]

Is the tax band your tax credits Liverbird?

[Rover 609]

Tax incentives if you "cycle" to work,who says the greens dont have a say in govt.:D

[RedWally]

Is the tax band your tax credits Liverbird?

Basically means if you're on higher rate of tax and are single there is 1000euro you were once paying high rate on that you'll now pay lower rate on.

[liverbird!!]

Holiday Homes Tax of €200.00 per year
Or Rented Dwelling

[liverbird!!]

Tax incentives if you "cycle" to work,who says the greens dont have a say in govt.:D


pml:D:D you have to laugh!!

[mrpotatohead]

“I wish to advise the house that members of the Government and ministers of state will surrender 10% of their current total pay,” the minister said.

“Officers at Secretary General level in Government departments have volunteered to make a corresponding surrender in respect of their pay.

“Other public servants in leadership and senior positions may wish to consider whether it is appropriate for them to make a similar move in current circumstances.”


Thats what he said regarding the pay cut, well i think thats what he said, why the hell does he have to call it volunteering surrender blah blah blah

[liverbird!!]

Not too bad, wasn't as bad as i thought!

Still got screwed on smokes, Petrol, and motor tax

[D-Red]

Not too bad, wasn't as bad as i thought!

Still got screwed on smokes, Petrol,

thought the smokes would go up a euro myself so not all that bad

[jaza]

Beer wasnt touched im delighted :D

[Aido82]

petrol, holiday tax, med 1 / med 2 forms - money back down to 20% from 40% - all hitting me

[windhover]

What a load of shite budget!

[jaza]

What a load of shite budget!

its the same every year sure a load of shit

[liverbird!!]

Actually was a bad enough budget when you break it down
only looked through it all now and we'll all be at a loss of funds.

Thought the smokes would go up at least a €1.00
Petrol only comes down and he puts another 8cent on it
Mortgage reliefe down as well for non first time buyers
1% levy on all workers upto 100,000 & 2% for all over this.

Pretty bad all in all.

[D-Red]

How did it affect Mortgage relief for 1st time buyer, does anyone know?

[Raven136]

wasnt as bad as expected but over 70's pension thing is harsh.
1000EURO childcare staying till 5 and half is better than i thought but the petrol and motor tax will hit us all.
Cider and Beer staying the same...hurrah for Beer

[RedWally]

What's story with motortax?

[Shay]

What's story with motortax?

Gone up by 4/5%

How did it affect Mortgage relief for 1st time buyer, does anyone know?

I think it went up from 20% to 25% for the first two years

[D-Red]

I think it went up from 20% to 25% for the first two years

Nice one. Thanks for the info lad :)

[windhover]

Give and take messy bullshite budget. putting lower rate up by E1000 but a levy on everyone of 1%... pure stupid and poorer will be hurt badly.

review of medical cards over 70 but E400 given to those who are too well off to need them.

Stupid Fianna Fail approach to things as per usual.

[locallad]

It doesn't do much for Non first time buyers like myself, relief down to only 15%!!! :(
Car tax gone up again, it only went up in Feb and is now going up again.

[bryanod]

Very tame really, defeciet running at 6.5% should've means-tested childcare and the health cards.

Spread out the increases, everyone pays, higher earners pay more.

Smokes and alcohol got off pretty lightly overall.

Its great how people moan when taxes were coming down, now moan when the country needs to take it back, what can you do?

Lots of incentives to get businesses going and starting which can help grow the economy.

[locallad]

Also they bring down stamp duty on commercial property!!! Surely they should bring it down on residential in order to get people buying again!!!???

[Aido82]

VAT going up by .5% will affect everything - ESB, eircom, ntl, sky etc all household bills will go up. All electrical goods will go up.


Pertrol going up by 8c - average price now will be 1.28 a litre. Imagine if there becomes another shortage and the price per barrell goes up - remember it was 150$ - its now 85$ a barell when this goes back up petrol will hit 1.40 a litre ( what a joke)

[south]

VAT going up by .5% will affect everything - ESB, eircom, ntl, sky etc all household bills will go up. All electrical goods will go up.


Pertrol going up by 8c - average price now will be 1.28 a litre. Imagine if there becomes another shortage and the price per barrell goes up - remember it was 150$ - its now 85$ a barell when this goes back up petrol will hit 1.40 a litre ( what a joke)

ESB and the like are on the lower rate of 13% this rate is not going to be touched

[Aido82]

thats not to bad so

[Yoko]

disgrace as usual, 1% levy will hit those on minimum wage hardest

[MrsStevieG]

The only way you'll be better off after this budget is if you're on the dole.

Tell that to those poor people who have recently lost their jobs and have mortgages, kids, up to their necks in debt. I'm sure they're only delighted with their extra €6.50 a week.

Have to have a proper look at this tommorrow as I only heard bits and pieces on the radio while in work but happy about the ciggies not going up too much.
Rumour of them going up €2 a pack was giving me sleepless nights:D.
Pissed off about the petrol and VAT going up but apart from that I'm not affected too badly as far as I know.


Very good of them to take a 10% pay cut on their big fat salaries isn't it:rolleyes:

[Andrew]

How much of a pay increase have they given themselves over the past few years? Even just last year didn't they get a pay bump. 10% means nothing to them.

[dking]

Not too bad, wasn't as bad as i thought!

Still got screwed on smokes, Petrol, and motor tax

Imagine if we all decided to get fit , sold the car , walked to worked and gave up drinking and smoking..................
the country would go bang.

[denashpot]

Imagine if we all decided to get fit , sold the car , walked to worked and gave up drinking and smoking..................
the country would got bang.

lol, they would find some way of getting it from us. like taxing the air, water charges, sunlight?? :p

[liamo3]

Terrible budget..

[pam]

100 euro's for accident & emergency visit at hospital :mad: disgrace

[byrnetred]

not the worst was expecting worse, good to see top earners getting hit for once...

good to see the cars getting hit hard...

mortgage relief has increased which is great cause i might consider it towards the later end of next year when houses go down even more but the same relief still applies

not happy about the fact that people on the min wage still have to pay the 1%

really pissed off that pretty much **** all has been done about the biggest drain on the country, the civil service, the government was not stronge enough to put in proper reform

[south]

100 euro's for accident & emergency visit at hospital :mad: disgrace

i think the point there is to make people who have no need going to A&E to use their GPs first acting as a deterrent..€100 is a bit crazy though after all the money that has been pxssed away over the last few years by the HSE.

[Monty]

A budget that will definitly make us budget.....

[DaPitViper]

I heard the ministers finnally took a pay cut is that right or is someone b*lls**tting me

[Aido82]

10k pay cut.. which is f*** all to them

[Garrett]

Well

After today, I don't think I'll be walking right for about a month ....

I'll give some credit for the Ministers taking a pay cut of 10% (along with "senior" civil servants, whatever they are exactly ?) but to be honest, the budgets been pretty un-equitable with those on lower money getting stung harder than those on big dosh, imho.

I was disappointed to see things like:

0.5% on vat, that hits everyone equally, so those with less dosh feel it more, in terms of the impact on their household bills etc.

1% "levy" on all earnings up to €100k, therefore those on lower incomes get caught (I'd have done something like those below say €40k pay nothing, those on €41k - €100k pay 1%, €101k - €150k @ 1.5% & so on ...)

8 cents a litre on petrol is again hitting everyone the same & there's a few more examples of this kinda thing from the looks of it.

[corcaigh]

just reading about this in swansea, that budget sounds absolutely horrible.

the car taxes are absolutely unbelieveable. 8c extra on a fill-up over a whole year is almost a new type of road tax and then they have the cheek to increase the tax anyway.

[GaryMc]

They should have put 5% levy on all those earning over 100,000. 1% levy on everyone up 100,000 is pretty unfair in my eyes. All the increases the lower paid got in recent years is gone. Although I am glad to see the likes of Gerry Ryan Pat Kenny will be paying 16k with introduction of the levy

I suppose they had to do something, but they could have hit the high earners harder.

You can bet if there was election coming up next May the budget would be very different.

[robbie st leger]

not the worst was expecting worse, good to see top earners getting hit for once...

good to see the cars getting hit hard...

mortgage relief has increased which is great cause i might consider it towards the later end of next year when houses go down even more but the same relief still applies

not happy about the fact that people on the min wage still have to pay the 1%

really pissed off that pretty much **** all has been done about the biggest drain on the country, the civil service, the government was not stronge enough to put in proper reform

sorry for asking but why is it good to see cars getting hit hard - if you can tell me how the f*** i can get to work in under 2 hours without one and use less than 4 buses PLEASE!!!

Let the eco warriors f*** off:mad::mad:

[Aido82]

just filled the car up. 1.15 a litre in texaco glasnevin. Hopefully a full tank will keep me going for a while. Same fuel will be 1.23a litre come midnight.

[Dub13]

On the fuel the Gov are getting in now when Oil is very cheap by the last 18 months standard anyway,Oil is trading at around $86 a barrel this week they would not try the same move it it was around the $150 mark as it was not to long ago.

I am glad they did not mess to much with the child benefit.

[AthloneScouser]

Colege fees gone up 65%, This maybe last year so, Bit harsh on students who pay fees themselves.

[mypost]

They should have put 5% levy on all those earning over 100,000. 1% levy on everyone up 100,000 is pretty unfair in my eyes. All the increases the lower paid got in recent years is gone. Although I am glad to see the likes of Gerry Ryan Pat Kenny will be paying 16k with introduction of the levy

You can bet if there was election coming up next May the budget would be very different.

There is, albeit not a general one. Then again, the government is so brittle, you don't know when it may collapse.

Sickening to watch Lenihan get a standing ovation after such a slasher budget. :mad::mad::mad:

[Garrett]

Hi Everyone

While I can't erase what's been done to you all today in the budget, I thought I'd do something else to try and save you all a few quid, just click on the link below:


http://irishkop.com/forums/showthread.php?p=93012#post93012

Ta Da ! ;)

Hope it helps.

[windhover]

good to see the cars getting hit hard...

mortgage relief has increased which is great cause i might consider it towards the later end of next year when houses go down even more but the same relief still applies

1) fantastic if you live / can afford to buy next to where you work! Think this is a silly comment given the disgracefull public transport available! so people who commute to the cities getting taxed to buy run maintain and no PARK cars!

2)If you can get a mortgage

Lets get one thing straight about this budget... We all get hit but the poorest are in serious trouble here.
1% on an income of 20,000 is 200E.. not much for most of us.. maybe one or two less nights in but big buzz??
Fat Lenis approach is that this is a small price to pay in a crisis!! MORONIC RESPONSE FROM AN UTTER MORON!! This crisis has not just happened this month thousands of families have been in crisis for the past few years but FF and their cronies had their noses shoved so far up the developers arses at the Galway races that they failed to notice!

[GaryMc]

http://www.taxcalc.eu/

See how much you are down per month? Although if you compare 2007 and 2009 there is not too much of a difference.

[mypost]

Lets get one thing straight about this budget... We all get hit but the poorest are in serious trouble here.
1% on an income of 20,000 is 200E.. not much for most of us.. maybe one or two less nights in but big buzz??
Fat Lenis approach is that this is a small price to pay in a crisis!! MORONIC RESPONSE FROM AN UTTER MORON!!

Who reckons some of these stealth taxes, are in part, a response to the recent referendum result?

The job situation is bad in Dublin, (I am a victim of it :(), but I imagine in rural Ireland, the situation is ten times as bad. If one company pulls out, it can leave entire communities on the dole.

They especially, can really do without the stealth taxes.

[windhover]

Who reckons some of these stealth taxes, are in part, a response to the recent referendum result?

The job situation is bad in Dublin, (I am a victim of it ), but I imagine in rural Ireland, the situation is ten times as bad. If one company pulls out, it can leave entire communities on the dole.

They especially, can really do without the stealth taxes.

totally agree with you. Impossible to judge the true effect of things..

Did anyone notice the q's for petrol all around the country??!! totally crazy!

[windhover]

,,

[CrazyHorse]

sorry for asking but why is it good to see cars getting hit hard - if you can tell me how the f*** i can get to work in under 2 hours without one and use less than 4 buses PLEASE!!!

Let the eco warriors f*** off:mad::mad:

I 2nd that Robbie...

It takes me about 2 hours to get to work, and 2 buses during the day, so' I'd only hope the OP was reffering to Yummy Mummies bringing their precious children to school, because for the people who really need their car, its a f**king disgrace!!!!

[Paul]

disgrace as usual, 1% levy will hit those on minimum wage hardest

Yeah they'll have to pay 3.37 tax per week now.

[Daz]

Am I right in saying the new airport tax will kick in at the lower rate for flights to Liverpool, Blackpool and Manchester but the higher rate for B'ham and Leeds

[reder]

Am I right in saying the new airport tax will kick in at the lower rate for flights to Liverpool, Blackpool and Manchester but the higher rate for B'ham and Leeds

That is correct Daz, as of now. A €2 charge will be in place for Liverpool, Blackpool and Manchester but flights to B'ham and London will be subject to a €10 charge. Im not 100% sure about Leeds. I suspect this is in the €2 category, given its geographical location.

The levy on those on minimun wage is very harsh in my opinion. I am very worried about this levy, as it can be hiked up very quickly. Personally, I would have cut the public sector employees salaries, along with scroungers who have been on the dole for more than 3 years.

On a side, those members of the general public who queued outside petrol stations last night and bought trolly loads of wine, need to get their heads checked. The probably wasted more money on petrol queueing than they will save from their purchase.

[windhover]

[QUOTE] along with scroungers who have been on the dole for more than 3 years.[QUOTE]

dangerous talk when we will be facing 8% unemployment next year!

[D-Red]

On a side, those members of the general public who queued outside petrol stations last night and bought trolly loads of wine, need to get their heads checked. The probably wasted more money on petrol queueing than they will save from their purchase.

Well said. What sort of bullsh!t carry on was that

[mrpotatohead]

Can anyone explain what the F**k this is PAYE earners also face a €200 car space tax and a doubling in betting tax.

D-Red your gonna have to reduce the gambling too, with that extra betting tax!

Is the airport levy based on distance or the size of the airport your flyin into?

Oh its distance http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1014/breaking75.html

[D-Red]

D-Red your gonna have to reduce the gambling too, with that extra betting tax!


I really should mate! But if losing every single bet I put on hasn't stopped me nothing will :D

[Paul]

On-line tax free betting :D
Bookies will have to cover it or they'll be no one in the shops ;)

[Daz]

That is correct Daz, as of now. A €2 charge will be in place for Liverpool, Blackpool and Manchester but flights to B'ham and London will be subject to a €10 charge. Im not 100% sure about Leeds. I suspect this is in the €2 category, given its geographical location.


According to this Leeds will be over 300km, though I don;t know how accurate it is:

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/distances.html?n=78

[D-Red]

Can anyone explain what the F**k this is


That's that ridiculous tax on people for car-parking spaces at work.

Apparently designed to make people "cycle to work".


2 of our employees here live 80 miles away. I'm sure they'll be grand cycling in every morning

[RedWally]

According to this Leeds will be over 300km, though I don;t know how accurate it is:

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/distances.html?n=78

Us poor lads in the west will be paying €10 on each flight.

[mrpotatohead]

That's that ridiculous tax on people for car-parking spaces at work.

Apparently designed to make people "cycle to work".


2 of our employees here live 80 miles away. I'm sure they'll be grand cycling in every morning

Seriously? between that and the air tax, you have to wonder how they come up with this shit. So wlll people who work and own a car, basically get billed 200euro, or how will it be collected?

[D-Red]

Seriously? between that and the air tax, you have to wonder how they come up with this shit. So wlll people who work and own a car, basically get billed 200euro, or how will it be collected?

I think the employers are supposed to pay it but I'm not sure.
It's a fcuking joke altogether. There was a collective laugh when that one was announced

[jaza]

That's that ridiculous tax on people for car-parking spaces at work.

Apparently designed to make people "cycle to work".


2 of our employees here live 80 miles away. I'm sure they'll be grand cycling in every morning

you ever been to amsterdam. Everyone over there cycles and not an overweight person to be seen. Aparently its a good system but you better make sure you look left and right when crossing the roads . I think most people who can cycle should cycle to work unfortunately with my job there is only 4 spaces for bikes ha.

[Paul]

Us poor lads in the west will be paying €10 on each flight.

Not to sure if it applies to regional airports, you might be ok.

[Daz]

Not to sure if it applies to regional airports, you might be ok.

Thought it was every airport myself

[mrpotatohead]

I cant see how employers would be responsible for paying this, maybe they would, but what are they gonna do, churn up the tarmac that they have paid to put around their business?? I'm sure lots of places would have too many spaces for they amount employed (especially with everyone getting laid off now!)
Thats a fairly funny tax

When are they gonna put carbon tax on fizzy drinks?

[D-Red]

I cant see how employers would be responsible for paying this

You're right. I may have fed you a bit of misleading info. It's the employees responsible for paying it alright.

This is from the Irish Times website:

CAR PARKING LEVY: MOTORISTS WHO drive to work in the cities are being encouraged to swap steering wheel for saddle with a new €200 annual levy charged to employees whose employer provides them with a parking space.

The new car park levy applies to the employee rather than the parking space, so those sharing spaces will each have to pay the €200 fee.

A spokesman for the Department of Finance said the new levy would apply to civil servants and members of the Oireachtas, as well as to ordinary citizens. The urban areas involved will be the centres of Dublin, Cork, Galway and Limerick.

[Gerry]

Seen this calculator might be of interest to some

http://www.pwc.com/ie/budget2009/budget_calculator.html

[Andrew]

How are they going to monitor that? What if you have a car, parking is provided but you cycle to work? What if you get a puncture one morning and have to drive to work? Will you be charged then?

[Pimboli]

They compared the budget on The Last Word yesterday to someone scrounging around the back of your couch for a few quid to have enough to buy a pint.

We're what €8bn in debt so to combat this we

a) Levy the 10,000 holiday homes €200 each raising a staggering €2m
b) Levy €200 on car spaces to 'promote people to cycle to work' that will raise what €10m tops as no one is going to cycle.
c) €10-€12 departure tax so the family of 4 who spend €200 on cheap flights as they need the money get hit with between €10-€12 each 20% of the flight but the fat cat in first class paying €700, €800 or even €1,000+ pays the same which is what 1% or so.
d) People who bought their houses 2 years ago get a 2.5% mortgage relief increase on the 'screwed to the wall' prices they were forced to pay but new buyers to the market get an extra 5% despite the ar$e having fallen out of the market and house prices plummeting and are the ones who dont need help.
e) Stamp Duty on Commercial Properties reduced from 9% to 6% rewarding the property developers for getting us into this mess saying its to promote developments despite the fact their empty apartments and houses all over the place that cant be shifted.
f) Over 70's medical cards taken away and means tested, who here knows a minted OAP?
g) The 1% & 2% 'levy' ie income tax, rather than band it and have say people from €25k to €50k paying 1% €50k- €100k pay 2% and €100k over 3% or something similar they levy everyone. I wouldnt be surprised if they class the dole or state pensions as 'earnings' and tax that too and this is with BL starting his speach saying they need to protect the vunerable.

Everyone was expecting a tough budget but this was a joke of one, we are still spending more than we need to so rather than cut spending they just tax more, for all the talk of setting ourselves up to be able to cope and plan for the next few years this budget, to me anyway, screamed 'we havent the slightest clue what we are at'

[liamo3]

Companies will take on the parking tax and will dish it out to anyone guaranteed a parking space ie all our managers senior and middle have allocated parking spaces there are a few that are first come first served the latter cannot be taxed as your never sure of one

[D-Red]

They compared the budget on The Last Word yesterday to someone scrounging around the back of your couch for a few quid to have enough to buy a pint.

We're what €8bn in debt so to combat this we

a) Levy the 10,000 holiday homes €200 each raising a staggering €2m
b) Levy €200 on car spaces to 'promote people to cycle to work' that will raise what €10m tops as no one is going to cycle.
c) €10-€12 departure tax so the family of 4 who spend €200 on cheap flights as they need the money get hit with between €10-€12 each 20% of the flight but the fat cat in first class paying €700, €800 or even €1,000+ pays the same which is what 1% or so.
d) People who bought their houses 2 years ago get a 2.5% mortgage relief increase on the 'screwed to the wall' prices they were forced to pay but new buyers to the market get an extra 5% despite the ar$e having fallen out of the market and house prices plummeting and are the ones who dont need help.
e) Stamp Duty on Commercial Properties reduced from 9% to 6% rewarding the property developers for getting us into this mess saying its to promote developments despite the fact their empty apartments and houses all over the place that cant be shifted.
f) Over 70's medical cards taken away and means tested, who here knows a minted OAP?
g) The 1% & 2% 'levy' ie income tax, rather than band it and have say people from €25k to €50k paying 1% €50k- €100k pay 2% and €100k over 3% or something similar they levy everyone. I wouldnt be surprised if they class the dole or state pensions as 'earnings' and tax that too and this is with BL starting his speach saying they need to protect the vunerable.

Everyone was expecting a tough budget but this was a joke of one, we are still spending more than we need to so rather than cut spending they just tax more, for all the talk of setting ourselves up to be able to cope and plan for the next few years this budget, to me anyway, screamed 'we havent the slightest clue what we are at'

Well said. I couldn't agree more.

Taking away the over 70's medical card is nothing short of disgusting. They should be ashamed. :mad:

And that tax on the parking is a complete joke. I'd love to meet the muppet who came up with that one because he must have a great sense of humour

[Andrew]

I think the tax on parking is a good one actually. Not just in terms of generating a bit of extra cash but in getting the public more active or at least using public transport.

[D-Red]

I dunno. A couple of the lads working here live 80 miles away. Their legs would be fairly sore by the time they arrived

[mrpotatohead]

T
d) People who bought their houses 2 years ago get a 2.5% mortgage relief increase on the 'screwed to the wall' prices they were forced to pay but new buyers to the market get an extra 5% despite the ar$e having fallen out of the market and house prices plummeting and are the ones who dont need help.
e) Stamp Duty on Commercial Properties reduced from 9% to 6% rewarding the property developers for getting us into this mess saying its to promote developments despite the fact their empty apartments and houses all over the place that cant be shifted.


These are so that people can keep pegging money into a black hole, and help all the banks, and rich people who have invested in property for the quick buck to get some cash back on it, and further screw the lesser well off people. The prices that houses are going for now are still over inflated! Showing what a killing these cowboys were making during the boom.

And the medical card thing is disgraceful, how much do they expect to save by doing this? its disgusting, can you imagine the worry on old peoples minds right now, even those who will probably get the card again after the means test, they dont need the stress of all this. People who have worked hard for years in this country getting one final kick in the balls.

[windhover]

I think the tax on parking is a good one actually. Not just in terms of generating a bit of extra cash but in getting the public more active or at least using public transport.

Get off your horse buddy. Grand lad if they provide proper public transport.
total bullshite tax

[Badman]

Get off your horse buddy. Grand lad if they provide proper public transport.
total bullshite tax

i agree with u there - i have to drive nearly 70 miles a day return journey. sometimes 6 days a week ( i know thats not as bad as others who are doing 100+). i live outside a small village and the only bus i see is a local school minibus in the evenings. i'm supposed to work from 9-5 but have had to start coming in at just after 7.30 to ensure getting a parking space. so now have to change work day from 8-4.
if the public transport system was efficient and serviced all the satellite towns etc properly then thats ok, but here in cork its a joke. if i was within 5-6 miles i'd cycle, but i aint that fit so i aint cycling 70 miles a day.

[MrsStevieG]

That car tax thing is a load of sh**e. Can't see it working.
And as for the cycling thing - defo not gonna work. How are they going to prove that you are actually cycling to work??. You could easily just get the grant for the bike - sell the bike and use the surplus money you saved to pay for your €200 car tax:). Sorted:D.

Another hair brained idea from the government that they haven't thought through.

Nice to see the builders got a good help out from them as usual. The 3%reduction in stamp duty for commercial property and also the Local Authorities are going to give out mortgages to people who otherwise would not get loans from lending institutions. Eh there is reason why people do not get these loans! And the Government aren't doing this for the want of trying to help the ordinary joe soap. They are trying their hardest to "help" saddle the poorer people in society with more debt just to fill the builders pockets once again. Fook off!

[reder]

I actually agree with means testing the OAP's medical card. I know too many pensioners who are very well off and can afford the cost of a visit to the doctor etc.

I would also take the likes of viagra off the medical card. I think it is an absolutely disgrace that it is available on a freebie.

[mypost]

The levy on those on minimun wage is very harsh in my opinion. I am very worried about this levy, as it can be hiked up very quickly. Personally, I would have cut the public sector employees salaries, along with scroungers who have been on the dole for more than 3 years.

Why d'you think there was such a tough budget yesterday? Because we are losing jobs by the carload, and people can't find one. Therefore people won't even get the option of paying the €200 park tax or the minimum wage tax, never mind spend money in the economy.

Another 500 jobs gone yesterday, in one DAY. That's basically 2 towns wiped out economically. They are good decent people, not scroungers, willing but unable to work. I think some people don't understand just how serious the situation is, and think yesterday's budget was just for show.

[reder]

And as for the cycling thing - defo not gonna work. How are they going to prove that you are actually cycling to work??. You could easily just get the grant for the bike - sell the bike and use the surplus money you saved to pay for your €200 car tax:). Sorted:D.


What is this bike grant you speak of? The tax is on the car and they are trying to promote the use of public transport or bikes or have I missed something.

[MrsStevieG]

I actually agree with means testing the OAP's medical card. I know too many pensioners who are very well off and can afford the cost of a visit to the doctor etc.


I have to say I find myself agreeing with this too. I'm sure there are plenty of retired Solicitors/Accountants/Multi millionaires who are over the age of 70. Why should they be automatically entitled to a medical card when they are well able to pay for it themselves!.
And the cut off point for this is incomes of more €600 or €700 per week or something so its not as if they are targetting people like my granny who is only a state pension.
They have to make the cuts somewhere and I would rather see it happen to people who can afford it - not as if that happens often in this country.

[D-Red]

What is this bike grant you speak of? The tax is on the car and they are trying to promote the use of public transport or bikes or have I missed something.

Mrs StevieG was referring to the tax exemption about bikes, etc

1,000 euro per employee

Have a peek at this link:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1015/1224020737542.html

[MrsStevieG]

What is this bike grant you speak of? The tax is on the car and they are trying to promote the use of public transport or bikes or have I missed something.

As far as I know you are entitled to a grant for a bike if you buy one to use for work.

[windhover]

I wonder if your employer "charges" you for your car space instead of "provides" it? A nominal fee of E1 yearly?? would this work?

[windhover]

I would also take the likes of viagra off the medical card. I think it is an absolutely disgrace that it is available on a freebie.

You can only prescribe 4 a month and I suppose you can argue its important for their health! ;)

[D-Red]

I would also take the likes of viagra off the medical card. I think it is an absolutely disgrace that it is available on a freebie.

Are you sure you don't mind paying? :D


Seriously though I would be inclined to agree

[Andrew]

Ok woah there. I'm on no high horse. Nor, am I suggesting people that are 80 miles from work cycle. I'm just saying, it's a good incentive to get people who can to cycle/use public transport. Budget or not, it's a tax that promotes healthy living, environmental friendliness and getting cars off the road.

The implementation of the tax is another matter and it's hard to see how it'll be enforced (hence my own questions earlier). It's also hard to say what constitutes "public transport" to work. If there's only 1 bus that leaves my area an hour early so that I can get the connecting bus to etc etc. that'd be bullshit and you couldn't expect the person to do that every day.

[Gerry]

I would also take the likes of viagra off the medical card. I think it is an absolutely disgrace that it is available on a freebie.


Viagra on the medical card is just the tip of the iceberg, i know of several people on the medical card who have got boob jobs done on the medical card because they said it was affecting their cinfidence, some of them are smack heads too, honest to god you could not make it up ! some of them had it done in the exclusive blackrock clinic too, how can this be justified ?

[liverbird!!]

Viagra on the medical card is just the tip of the iceberg, i know of several people on the medical card who have got boob jobs done on the medical card because they said it was affecting their cinfidence, some of them are smack heads too, honest to god you could not make it up ! some of them had it done in the exclusive blackrock clinic too, how can this be justified ?

Did you wey them???:D:D

[Gerry]

If you seent he people involved you would not dream of giving them a wey or a num !

[D-Red]

The implementation of the tax is another matter and it's hard to see how it'll be enforced

Exactly. I don't know how they are going to police this properly

[mrpotatohead]

And the cut off point for this is incomes of more €600 or €700 per week or something so its not as if they are targetting people like my granny who is only a state pension.
They have to make the cuts somewhere and I would rather see it happen to people who can afford it - not as if that happens often in this country.

Thats fair enough, if thats the case, then sorry for getting so excited!
I'm not actually living in Ireland so i havent been bombarded with news and info like the rest of ye!

If there is such a grant for bikes etc, then i can see Santy Claus delivering alot of bikes to lucky kids this Xmas!*

*Time to buy some shares in Ralleigh :cool:

[liverbird!!]

If you seent he people involved you would not dream of giving them a wey or a num !


Ah you would!!!:D:D:p

[Andrew]

If there is such a grant for bikes etc, then i can see Santy Claus delivering alot of bikes to lucky kids this Xmas!*


That would be fantastic. Kids spend too much time on DS Lites, Xboxs and TV these days.
I'll leaving these shores next year myself so I won't get one but if the grant is still going when I get back I'll defo invest in a bike.

[Paul]

I have to say I find myself agreeing with this too. I'm sure there are plenty of retired Solicitors/Accountants/Multi millionaires who are over the age of 70. Why should they be automatically entitled to a medical card when they are well able to pay for it themselves!.
And the cut off point for this is incomes of more €600 or €700 per week or something so its not as if they are targetting people like my granny who is only a state pension.
They have to make the cuts somewhere and I would rather see it happen to people who can afford it - not as if that happens often in this country.

I agreed with the theory of it as well but...................................The cut off point you illude to is not the case i'm afraid.

Talk to the Ordinary working class pensioners who worked all their lives, always paid their taxes and who never had their hands out for a penny when the state has been on it's knees in the past. They have their own pension which they would have contributed to all their lives along with the state pension so they will now be severly hit.

The cut off point you illude to would be fine but that's not the case i'm afraid.

Who will get a medical card?
In addition to the general population who hold a means tested medical card, the medical card will also be available to the following:

Any person aged 70 and over who acquired their medical card by means assessment will not be affected by this budget change. They will retain their medical card but it will be subject to the existing review procedures
Any person aged 70 and over, who currently holds a non-means tested medical card and is under the weekly net income threshold of €201.50 for a single person, €173.50 for a single person living with family and €298 for a married couple
Any person aged 70 and over, whose sole income is derived from D/SFA or HSE payments or allowances.

Who will get a GP visit card?
In addition to the general population who hold a means tested GP visit card, the GP visit card will also be available to the following:

Any person aged 70 and over, who currently holds a non means tested medical card and who is under the weekly income threshold of €302 for a single person, €260 for a single person living with family and €447 for a married couple.

Who will get the €400 Health Support Payment?
The Health Support Payment of €400 per person will be paid to people now aged 70 and over, and those who become 70 in future, who now do not qualify for either a medical card or a GP visit card on the means test and whose weekly gross income is below €650 for a single person and €1,300 for a married couple.

[mypost]

The Dáil is debating the Budget, which was announced by Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan yesterday.

Taoiseach Brian Cowen defended the move telling TDs that hard decisions had to be taken if further services were not to be cut

Before the budget debate resumed this morning Leader's Questions was dominated by the measures announced yesterday.

Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny described the Budget as 'one of the most swingeing and savage' in years.

He said every single person in the country will have to pay for the Government's mistakes.

Labour leader Eamon Gilmore asked the Taoiseach which of the '39 taxes and charges' he was most embarrassed by.

The Taoiseach said that if Labour contended that there should be no tax cuts then it would have to cut spending by €5.5bn.

There were also angry exchanges about the withdrawal of the medical card for people over 70 years of age.

The Taoiseach has also told the Dáil that in the coming weeks he will announce details of public sector reform that will include a 'rigorous appraisal of staffing levels'.

With ministers roaring their support Mr Cowen acknowledged that people would be worse off, regretted that his Government had to make hard decisions, but insisted that if they had not other services would ultimately have to be cut.

Last night, a late night sitting saw the Government comfortably win a series of votes on measures including an income levy, a VAT increase, and higher excise duty on petrol, cigarettes and wine.

Increases on cigarettes, wine and petrol, came into force immediately.

The VAT increase applies from December, while the income levy and motor tax increases will operate from the start of next year.

[Paul]

I'm surprised with you mypost, copying and pasting directly from RTE website.

[doyler087]

People,
Have a go on this its a way you will see if you or better or worse off.

https://tax123.ie/Budget2009Calc.php

[Paul]

People,
Have a go on this its a way you will see if you or better or worse off.

https://tax123.ie/Budget2009Calc.php

Won't be many better off i'd say.

I'm 876 worse off over the year according to that.

In the current envoirnment i can live with that.

[jaza]

im 432 euro less off. thats a few trips to anfield in my opinion.

[Paul]

im 432 euro less off. thats a few trips to anfield in my opinion.

Must be cheap trips ;)

[mrpotatohead]

I'm surprised with you mypost, copying and pasting directly from RTE website.

RTE, above all people :) them fascists who hate Liverpool :)

[mypost]

And there was me thinking the independent fiscal policy of the Republic of Ireland did not affect the day-to-day business of Liverpool FC... :eek::rolleyes:

[jaza]

And there was me thinking the independent fiscal policy of the Republic of Ireland did not affect the day-to-day business of Liverpool FC... :eek::rolleyes:

so would you read everything in the s*n except whats said about liverpool?

[Andrew]

I'm €324 worse off according to that site.
I can live with that.

[Yoko]

That's pure money. Out of your wage packet. You haven't seen what's going to happen to the cost of living yet

[Paul]

That's pure money. Out of your wage packet. You haven't seen what's going to happen to the cost of living yet

It's a bit more than that inclueded (petrol and VAT ect) and obviously he only posted it as a guide.

No doubt we have all have tougher times ahead though.

Regarding the cost of living i thought they were a bit optimistic with the forecast of 2.5 % for inflation next year.

[Andrew]

That's pure money. Out of your wage packet. You haven't seen what's going to happen to the cost of living yet

Well it's obviously only a rough quide and it did include increases to grocery shopping & petrol in there.

[reder]

Im €500 worse off.

[Paul]

Im €500 worse off.

Less stout for the squirrel so :(

[Pimboli]

Im €350 worse off myself into my hand but its the other things that will mount up. The 0.5% increase on VAT you will see some companies, reaturants etc., knocking a few extra quid onto their prices and fob it off as being the VAT increase.

[megager]

100 euro's for accident & emergency visit at hospital :mad: disgrace

100 euros is really steep! A and E should be free. Infact all medical care should be free to all.


The NHS is class.

[MrsStevieG]

I agreed with the theory of it as well but...................................The cut off point you illude to is not the case i'm afraid.

Apologies my mistake. It was this I was thinking of. I thought this was the cut off for full medical card:

Who will get the €400 Health Support Payment?
The Health Support Payment of €400 per person will be paid to people now aged 70 and over, and those who become 70 in future, who now do not qualify for either a medical card or a GP visit card on the means test and whose weekly gross income is below €650 for a single person and €1,300 for a married couple.

Ah well I should have known. The government is an absolute disgrace. Picking on the vunerable and weak in society as usual instead of having the balls to target those who have it and get away with murder.

[carpe diem]

time for Sinn Féin to get into power,they'll look after the ordinary man instead of their rich buddies ! give me 5 minutes in a room alone with bertie.

[MrsStevieG]

time for Sinn Féin to get into power

Now there's a thought:eek:

[Dub13]

Sinn Féin look after nobody but there mates.

[carpe diem]

thats the dublin mentality imo,bertie has ye all brainwashed :D:D

[windhover]

100 euros is really steep! A and E should be free. Infact all medical care should be free to all.



Would have to agree with you lad, but this is completly against the etos of the FF PD regeime... Fckers want to privitise everything... US HMO's here we come.

[windhover]

time for Sinn Féin to get into power,they'll look after the ordinary man instead of their rich buddies !

LOL I don't know what planet youre living on lad!!

[mrpotatohead]

I can see this thread is going to get interesting!

[reder]

Less stout for the squirrel so :(

I think a stint on the dry would do him/her no harm.

[Pimboli]

[QUOTE=reder;93608]You are the one that is brainwashed. If SF/IRA got into power, which will never happen, the tax rates for all will be far higher than they currently are. They also have zero economic knowledge amongst their ranks which is very clear from any tv or radio debate they are involved in.
QUOTE]

One would be of the opinion the current minister for finance suffers from that problem too.

We have to cut back on public spending but are going to spend €2bn more next year.

We have to protect the vunerable in our society but are going to tax those that earn so little they need every cent to get by and take away the medical card for over 70's.

Yes everyone must shoulder the burded of the economy collapse caused by the fat cat politicians, bankers and property developers except, well, them.

[reder]

One would be of the opinion the current minister for finance suffers from that problem too..

I beg to differ. Whilst I disagree with some of his budget decisions, he is no economic fool. His decision to offer help to the banks saved 2 from going under in this country and thus saved an awful lot of savers a lot of money.


We have to protect the vunerable in our society but are going to tax those that earn so little they need every cent to get by and take away the medical card for over 70's..

Firstly, the medical card is means tested and I for one totally agree with it. No old lady or gent who is on the bread line will lose their card. I would do the same with the free travel myself. I dont agree with the 1% levy on minimum wage earners either. I would have capped it at €30K (Gross).


Yes everyone must shoulder the burded of the economy collapse caused by the fat cat politicians, bankers and property developers except, well, them.

The economy collapse was caused by factors well outside the control of any of the above in this country. Personally, I think the €1 billion charge on the banks is an insult to the tax payer. They abused their position for years but they cant be held responsible for the collapse of the world's economy.

[mypost]

One would be of the opinion the current minister for finance suffers from that problem too.

We have to cut back on public spending but are going to spend €2bn more next year.

We have to protect the vunerable in our society but are going to tax those that earn so little they need every cent to get by and take away the medical card for over 70's.

George Hook once said that

"there are two things you can't be in this country. You can't be old, or sick, and above all, you can't be old and sick."

The measure is another indicator why. But, as sure as eggs are eggs, if there was another election tomorrow, FF would be re-elected. :rolleyes: We get the government we deserve.

[stamullenredmen]

George Hook once said that

"there are two things you can't be in this country. You can't be old, or sick, and above all, you can't be old and sick."

The measure is another indicator why. But, as sure as eggs are eggs, if there was another election tomorrow, FF would be re-elected. :rolleyes: We get the government we deserve.


your right on your last point my father is the staunchest fianna fail man going.if cowen came down and turfed him out of the house tomorrow hed still vote for him in the next election.i have to drive to work cos its out of the way and im on shifts so i get hit with petrol and new car tax.then i have the 1% on my pay.dont go out much but myself and the wife like a bottle of wine thats up too.any luxury goods i buy will be up.pay more to fly to see the redmen now.if i follow up my plan and set up bank accounts for the twins theyll get hit with dirt.ill also lose 1100 euro early childcare.

its a ****ing farce why arent all these civil servants sorted out and the high earners hit.perfect example two doctors were with the wife when she was in labour.they decided she needed a section and had to go up to ask a consultant that hadnt even set eyes on her all day before they could go ahead.he or she is on near 300000 a year to sit in an office and make a call on someone they havent even seen,farce.

[mypost]

i have to drive to work cos its out of the way and im on shifts so i get hit with petrol and new car tax.then i have the 1% on my pay.dont go out much but myself and the wife like a bottle of wine thats up too.any luxury goods i buy will be up.pay more to fly to see the redmen now.if i follow up my plan and set up bank accounts for the twins theyll get hit with dirt.ill also lose 1100 euro early childcare.

its a ****ing farce

It's not all bad. You are fortunate enough to have a job at the moment, something which more and more people are losing daily.

How they're meant to pay all the stealth taxes is beyond me. :confused:

[stamullenredmen]

It's not all bad. You are fortunate enough to have a job at the moment, something which more and more people are losing daily.

How they're meant to pay all the stealth taxes is beyond me. :confused:


oh dont get me wrong i know im lucky to be in employment but my point is its the normal people taking the hit while the rich get off yet again

[reder]

I really dont think the name George Hook has any place on any current affairs forum. The man is a category 'A' clown. You should read up on the man's professional history. He is in absolutely no right passing comment on anyone elses economic or professional ability.

[reder]

oh dont get me wrong i know im lucky to be in employment but my point is its the normal people taking the hit while the rich get off yet again

Nobody who is rich, is getting richer again. I hate this anti-rich nonsense. Stop being such a begrudger. Everyone is subject to the same cuts at the moment. If someone is clever enough to be able to avoid the cuts then fair play to them for having the ability to do so.

[mrpotatohead]

its a ****ing farce why arent all these civil servants sorted out and the high earners hit.perfect example two doctors were with the wife when she was in labour.they decided she needed a section and had to go up to ask a consultant that hadnt even set eyes on her all day before they could go ahead.he or she is on near 300000 a year to sit in an office and make a call on someone they havent even seen,farce.

Thats a disgrace.

[reder]

Thats a disgrace.

100% agree. A terrible statement to make. I assume you dont know any doctors.

[Yoko]

Nobody who is rich, is getting richer again. I hate this anti-rich nonsense. Stop being such a begrudger. Everyone is subject to the same cuts at the moment. If someone is clever enough to be able to avoid the cuts then fair play to them for having the ability to do so.

Are you for real? So if someone can afford a hot-shot accountant to find all the tax loop holes that the government kindly left for them, then that's okay? While the average slob hauls his/her arse to work for 40+ hours a week to barely survive?

[reder]

Are you for real? So if someone can afford a hot-shot accountant to find all the tax loop holes that the government kindly left for them, then that's okay? While the average slob hauls his/her arse to work for 40+ hours a week to barely survive?

Its ok for someone who can afford an accountant or has the intelligence themselves to find inconsistencies in the policies created by highly paid civil servants to avail of them, in my opinion.

Loop holes are not placed in policies, they are present as a result of people not being able to do their job properly. That is common place throughout every sector and company in this country. Its standard fare here, that 2 or 3 competent individual have to carry 4 or 5 good time charlies in a workplace. Needless to say, I have no time for this.

[windhover]

Firstly, the medical card is means tested and I for one totally agree with it. No old lady or gent who is on the bread line will lose their card.


The economy collapse was caused by factors well outside the control of any of the above in this country.

Obviously you are not very familiar with the so called "means testing". I take offence to this statement for the simple reason that YES MEN AND WOMEN ON THE BREAD LINE WILL LOSE THEIR CARDS! The limit that currently exists is somewhere around E240 per week (State pension). If you are above this you are NOT entitled to a card! There are currently talks about raising the threshold to E260ish. Losing a card will not only lose them the right to medical care for free but also access to much needed services such as home help and rehab services.

Loss of a medical card will also mean that they will have to fork out for medications. Thanks to FF the threshold for the drugs repayment scheme is gone up to E100 a month. Lad every day I see people who can’t pay for their medications so this will get worse.

I agree with means testing in theory but not under the arrangements of FF government.

If you feel that the current situation is entirely a result of external factors you are completely misguided. FF were the ones who stubbornly drove ahead with economically unviable plans over the years and now are facing the repercussions of the same.

[windhover]

perfect example two doctors were with the wife when she was in labour.they decided she needed a section and had to go up to ask a consultant that hadnt even set eyes on her all day before they could go ahead.he or she is on near 300000 a year to sit in an office and make a call on someone they havent even seen,farce.

sorry lad but you obviously don't know how the hosp system works.. If only it were so simple...

[mypost]

Everyone is subject to the same cuts at the moment.

:D:D

Leno: "How will we boost our income from tourism? Tell you what. Slap a €10 tax on every flight out of the country*. Make sure it doesn't apply to private planes as well too, so we protect the tax exiles."

"Someone on the minimum wage, will be taxed to the bone with 1% of their salary. Make sure Mick O'Leary and co though, only have to contribute a whopping 2%"

*=There is a difference, but not for tourists. Tourists fly more than 300 kilometres.

Farce.

[Yoko]

Obviously the concept that "to treat everyone the same is to discriminate" is lost on some people. I lament the Irish people I really do

[stamullenredmen]

sorry lad but you obviously don't know how the hosp system works.. If only it were so simple...

well thats the way it appeared to me meybe ive an over simplistic view of things but surely ya have to see a person before you make decisions

[windhover]

but surely ya have to see a person before you make decisions
not at all. Worked in Obs for a while myself. Most times its a case of informing a senior and they can double check everything is going ok.. Can see why you would feel that way though.
As for cutting down on public sector expenditure... cutting down on medical staff is definately NOT the ans!

[stamullenredmen]

not at all. Worked in Obs for a while myself. Most times its a case of informing a senior and they can double check everything is going ok.. Can see why you would feel that way though.
As for cutting down on public sector expenditure... cutting down on medical staff is definately NOT the ans!


front line medical staff definitly not.its the ones in the back ground doing the admin that should be looked at.and that goes for all civil service.im probably going to annoy people by saying they should shed staff in the civil service but dont companies streamline in the private sector so why not the government.and id take that all the way to the dail far too many sub committees and junior ministers.

on another note fair play the oap's yesterday.that sort of action was needed

[The Chanter]

on another note fair play the oap's yesterday.that sort of action was needed

I heard yesterday that there will be changes relating to OAPs losing medical cards and also 1% tax increase will not be applied to minimum wage folk. This type of back peddling suggests the government didn't think this budget through.

That said, the fact that the government did listen is good news for the people of Ireland - shows that we have a voice.

[Pimboli]

I heard yesterday that there will be changes relating to OAPs losing medical cards and also 1% tax increase will not be applied to minimum wage folk. This type of back peddling suggests the government didn't think this budget through.



If ever there was an understatement that is it. Its shocking to think that for weeks all the different gov depts got together almost daily and this was what they came up with. They should have just raised the income tax bands by 1% on each and be done with it, no one would be complaining but thats too logical. Take the medical card away from over 70's and means test them, brilliant that will save a fortune and be popular.

The goverment are about to agree to another 20% gas hike so that extra €2 a week for utilities is going to come in so handy.

I wouldnt be surprised if there is a mini budget in 6 months. They never should have brought the budget foward as what use did it really do?

[mypost]

I wouldnt be surprised if there is a mini budget in 6 months. They never should have brought the budget foward as what use did it really do?

Window dressing.

[ewoodyg]

i met Mary Coughlan last Thursday night at the entrepreneur of the year awards and being the good politicain she is, she refused to answer any questions about the Budget :rolleyes:. i wonder if the greens walk out on government do they still have enough of a majority to continue with out holding an election?

[mypost]

They don't, but they won't.

Greens walking out would be like Turkeys voting for Christmas.

[Yoko]

U turn three confirmed. Three u-turns... which direction are they going in?!?

[windhover]

U turn three confirmed. Three u-turns... which direction are they going in?!?

goes to show you the level of planning that has gone in to the budget. Typical FF politics.. no foresight... half of the reason we are in this mess to begion with

[Yoko]

very iffy for them from here in, they've proven that a level of pressure applied to them and they'll collapse, very relaant on independents for goverment and that's tying their hands... not long left in this government I feel