Merseyside vitriol: Oliver Kay responds It seems like I opened a can of words with a piece yesterday about certain things that were chanted at the Merseyside derby at Goodison Park. Some have accused me of failing to understand the context in which “2-0 to the Murderers†was sung by a number of Liverpool supporters, so here goes... Sorry to disappoint you, but I do fully understand the context. I’m not exactly a novice when it comes to Merseyside football. But, from where I’m sitting, that context – Everton and Manchester United supporters gleefully chanting “murderers†for years without, it seems, the slightest clue about what happened at Heysel in 1985 – does not excuse what was sung. It doesn’t make the chant funny, clever or brilliant, as some seem to think. The chant sucks, as do the ones that provoked it in the first place. Some considered it genius because it silenced the Everton taunts (“You should have seen their faces …â€) and because it meant that Liverpool fans have “reclaimed†– or at least taken ownership of – the “murderers†tag, much like the gay community has with the word “queer†or the black community has with the word “******â€. Some have likened it to Tottenham's "yid" chants or Robbie Fowler’s “reclaiming†of the drug-abuse rumours back in 1999 with his infamous cocaine-snorting celebration. I take the point. I just don’t agree with it. The difference here is that we are talking about a disaster in which 39 people died. And yes I know it was a disaster that could have unfolded at just about any European match involving just about any English club over a period from the mid-1970s to the mid-1980s and that it took a particular set of circumstances – not least inadequate security arrangements and a crumbling abomination of a stadium, which Uefa should never forgive themselves for selecting – for it to happen when it did. Believe me, I know all that and I have frequently found myself trying to explain these things to people who think they know better. I also know that a disturbing large proportion of Everton and United supporters take undue pleasure in singing about Heysel in order to score points. I just did not really think that Liverpool fans, of all fans, would try to score points by turning the tables and singing it back in a way that made a joke (whether you like it or not) of a disaster that claimed the lives of 39 innocent football supporters. Someone called my reaction “fake moral outrageâ€. There’s nothing fake about it and I wasn’t outraged, just surprised and, yes, disappointed. I could have chosen to ignore the atmosphere on Saturday and particularly the "2-0 to the Murderers" chant, but I felt and still feel very strongly about it - just as I do the United fans whom I have condemned in the past for chanting despicable things about Hillsborough and for making light of their own disaster in the interests of point-scoring. I have often wondered what Sir Bobby Charlton thinks when he hears United fans at Anfield asking “Where’s your famous Munich song?†It just comes down to what you find acceptable. I don’t find the "murderers†chant acceptable. I don’t find “Without killing anyone, we’ve won it three times†acceptable (and that, unlikely as it may sound, was actually sung by the United players on the pitch at the Luzhniki Stadium in Moscow in May). I don’t find “Where’s your famous Munich song?†acceptable. I don’t find “2-0 to the Murderers†acceptable. I don’t find chants about Michael Shields or Harold Shipman acceptable. I find the chants about Steven Gerrard’s family utterly despicable, as I do the Evertonian “joke†of covering your face with your hand as if to signify someone being crushed at Hillsborough. I actually feel sickened as I write this. Maybe all of this makes me someone who has spent so long in the press box that he has lost touch with the tribal nature of football’s rivalries. Maybe, but I don’t think so. Maybe it is also possible to get so wound up in that tribal warfare that you lose sight of where the boundaries of taste lie. Some will not care, but, for me, the “2-0 to the Murderers chant†was a long way over that boundary. I know full well what the explanation is. I just don’t think that it constitutes any kind of excuse. Discuss- in particular has anyone else heard that United players sung what is claimed here on the pitch after the CL final??? I personally didn't watch.
Great article and I agree with everything here. I hate the fact that I bring my lad to a place were I love and to hear the chants that sometimes are so base that you wonder what are you doing bringing your child to somewhere with such hatred and such poisionous chants.You spend your life protecting them from this and then you bring them in to the middle of it .One aspect of football I have always hated.Fact that so many join in makes it even worse. As for the scum players I didn't watch it but if it did happen then it is unbelievable that it has spread to players as well.
Proof that he mancs are scum, even their players. Now that bit about the scummy mancs singing on the pitch is a disgrace my friends is a complete disgrace, proffessionals who should know better. I feel all reds should be mase aware of this, to know that they are scum, scum scum scum scum. And dont ever think otherwise. Sorry, I didnt realise it was already posted.
And apparently there were three players who did it. Though Im not naming them here on the site (at risk of bringing trouble on it), i am sure some of you can find the names elsewhere.
I can think of 2 that hate us with a passion...fairly scumbaggish behaviour from Professional Sportsmen.
Thing is without getting into the rights and wrongs of chants why on earth is it that we get hammered in the press, for example 70 min. at old trafford we are baited with "murders" "96 was never enough" "without killing anyone we won it 3 times" and they never ever write about that. I have some respect for Kay he's a match going red but if that happened at last years final why on earth has he not wrote about it. Pisses me off that Manc love fest that goes on in the press.
Theyd only won it twice at that time, thankfully. And wht about the Spurs and Palace fans?????? Agree though, its only when theres a retort that it gets mentioned. Its like, "Now Liverpool have got involved we can mention it cos it wont paint man u in as bad a light", undeniably pathetic.
It's sickening the way some of our so called press lads spread the news they need to take a long hard look at how they write about football. A lad on another forum sums it up perfectly
And why did he fell the need to add the"im the daddy" bit at the end of his arcticle over some hearsay that SG had it written on his tee shirt under his jersey. For what its worth if Reds sang that at the tiphead im dissapointed.
Funny how its never been reported till now abar the mancs singing that ! Im sure kay has proof as he would be in alot of bother if he printed something like that and it not true! Will wait and see what comes of it, someone on another site has said its been looked inot at the mo so we will see what happens ! great quote that liam, oh so true !
See the piece relating to the Mancs singing we won it 3 times without killing anyone has been edited out, how mysterious & disappointing that no one will take it on hey Oliver! It seems like I opened a can of words with a piece yesterday about certain things that were chanted at the Merseyside derby at Goodison Park. Some have accused me of failing to understand the context in which “2-0 to the Murderers†was sung by a number of Liverpool supporters, so here goes... Sorry to disappoint you, but I do fully understand the context. I’m not exactly a novice when it comes to Merseyside football. But, from where I’m sitting, that context – Everton and Manchester United supporters gleefully chanting “murderers†for years without, it seems, the slightest clue about what happened at Heysel in 1985 – does not excuse what was sung. It doesn’t make the chant funny, clever or brilliant, as some seem to think. The chant sucks, as do the ones that provoked it in the first place. Some considered it genius because it silenced the Everton taunts (“You should have seen their faces …â€) and because it meant that Liverpool fans have “reclaimed†– or at least taken ownership of – the “murderers†tag, much like the gay community has with the word “queer†or the black community has with the word “******â€. Some have likened it to Tottenham's "yid" chants or Robbie Fowler’s “reclaiming†of the drug-abuse rumours back in 1999 with his infamous cocaine-snorting celebration. I take the point. I just don’t agree with it. The difference here is that we are talking about a disaster in which 39 people died. And yes I know it was a disaster that could have unfolded at just about any European match involving just about any English club over a period from the mid-1970s to the mid-1980s and that it took a particular set of circumstances – not least inadequate security arrangements and a crumbling abomination of a stadium, which Uefa should never forgive themselves for selecting – for it to happen when it did. Believe me, I know all that and I have frequently found myself trying to explain these things to people who think they know better. I also know that a disturbing large proportion of Everton and United supporters take undue pleasure in singing about Heysel in order to score points. I just did not really think that Liverpool fans, of all fans, would try to score points by turning the tables and singing it back in a way that made a joke (whether you like it or not) of a disaster that claimed the lives of 39 innocent football supporters. Someone called my reaction “fake moral outrageâ€. There’s nothing fake about it and I wasn’t outraged, just surprised and, yes, disappointed. I could have chosen to ignore the atmosphere on Saturday and particularly the "2-0 to the Murderers" chant, but I felt and still feel very strongly about it - just as I do the United fans whom I have condemned in the past for chanting despicable things about Hillsborough and for making light of their own disaster in the interests of point-scoring. I have often wondered what Sir Bobby Charlton thinks when he hears United fans at Anfield asking “Where’s your famous Munich song?†It just comes down to what you find acceptable. I don’t find the "murderers†chant acceptable. I don’t find “Where’s your famous Munich song?†acceptable. I don’t find “2-0 to the Murderers†acceptable. I don’t find chants about Michael Shields or Harold Shipman acceptable. I find the chants about Steven Gerrard’s family utterly despicable, as I do the Evertonian “joke†of covering your face with your hand as if to signify someone being crushed at Hillsborough. I actually feel sickened as I write this. Maybe all of this makes me someone who has spent so long in the press box that he has lost touch with the tribal nature of football’s rivalries. Maybe, but I don’t think so. Maybe it is also possible to get so wound up in that tribal warfare that you lose sight of where the boundaries of taste lie. Some will not care, but, for me, the “2-0 to the Murderers chant†was a long way over that boundary. I know full well what the explanation is. I just don’t think that it constitutes any kind of excuse. http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/2008/09/merseyside-vitr.html
I must admit to being disappointed when I reaslised what was being sung. Has another line been crossed in respect of the "relationship" with the bloos now? Or was the line crossed a long time ago? Now I wasnt at either Heysel or Hillsborough but if I was I doubt whether Id be proud of fellow reds singing "2-0 to the Murderers". The bit about the United players singing that on the pitch has been taken down on the Times Online by the way.
Or maybe it's just one can of worms that he won't get the tin opener out for but lets have a go at Liverpool fans their fair game! Really disappointed with him I thought he'd be better that that.
I don't find calling Liverpool fans "Murderers" fair game no. I'm not a murderer are you? However this moral high ground that people seem to want to get on is a little out of reach. My main problem is the the author speaks of examples of many times we had to sit in a ground and listen to shite from home fans so why didn't he write about it at that moment in time like he's done here!
Well edited or not they got a piece of mind but I would not be suprised that they would not publish my comment. Double standards thats all I can say the darlings of the media Man U are, anything bad said by a journo of Liverpool descent is edited/deleted whatever...great journalistic attributes from the Times clap clap