quinn rip off

[reddy]

Been listening to the radio today and the news at 6 on rte . This quinn insurance and us the public yet again having to pay for the gambling losses of the like of quinn is really starting to get on my tits . I genuinely believe our generation today will be remembered for being the most spineless bunch of wasters in the history of this island . Now I am not trying to angst folk but I feel I got to put this out here - are we the most stupid people on the planet ??? We have swallowed everything told to us by no more than gangsters posing as politicians and lined up like good little soldiers to empty out our pockets and give our money to the wealthy ,and not just from here , but all over the world ffs !!!. I dont want to come across as a moaning fkuc but in the name of God - how much are we gonna take ??? when are we gonna just say no ??? Is there any people in this country willing to stand up to these bistards who will take the food from our childrens mouths . The Brits stood up to their cronies - the French - the Greeks - we just keep taking this crap time after time . We need to organise proper demonstrations ,,,,,,SOON :mad::mad::mad:. sorry .

[Juan]

Nothing to be sorry about,as you speak the truth. And it will get worse...unfortunately.
I made a decision a few years ago that what the government take from me ..then i will take it back through other ways and means.
Just sorry i didnt follow the politicians example sooner.

[Garrett]

Personally,

I think the fact that over 1,500 jobs were at risk was a consideration when doing the deal which has now been announced for Quinn Insurance. For now at least, all of these jobs have been protected and this in itself, is vital ....

Nonetheless, I sat there wondering to myself, can they turn this business around and make it profitable, so as to put both Anglo (or whatever we're supposed to call it now the signs have been taken down) and the other shareholder(s) can flog it for a profit on their intended investment (€98m from Anglo and €102m from Liberty Mutual, as I have it) ?

All things being equal, the solution reached is probably the best which could have been found in the short term, despite the fact that it would seem the losses to be covered by the state insurance scheme, will ultimately result in a levy being applied on all insurance companies to raise circa €300m, which in turn will mean each of our policies will be loaded up for years to come ...

As I see it here and now, we're paying a "small" levy each on our insurance policies for the next few years, to cover the cost of helping to keep excess 1,500 in jobs. That in turn means we don't have to cover their unemployment costs and they contribute into the tax take for the next few years - it's by far, the lesser of two evils imho.


Nothing to be sorry about,as you speak the truth. And it will get worse...unfortunately.
I made a decision a few years ago that what the government take from me ..then i will take it back through other ways and means.
Just sorry i didnt follow the politicians example sooner.

It seems to me we've a few choices:

- Follow Juan's example above (each one of us will have various levels of success and depending on the strategy adopted, some may end up in deep sh1t too ... though I'm not saying that Juan is proposing something illegal btw)

- Continue to put up with it (we've been taking it up the a$$ for years now, so should prove relatively easy to continue this approach)

- Leave the country (depends on your circumstances, but no doubt about it there's a better life waiting for people in the likes of Canada, Australia etc me thinks)

- Start fighting back .. literally get your a$$ down to your local politicans and give them hell, then repeat the process until they start acting in your best interst.

[Red7778]

Cannot believe Quinn would jeopardize the lives of so many of his employees which such reckless gambling.
But to quote a line from Colony 'Greed is the knife and the scars run deep'

[reddy]

Good stuff lads - Garrett, my head is being melted because its us , joe public, who will again pay others gambling depts . We are slowly going hungry here . I listened earlier in the year to a report re 2 children looking in bins for food :eek:.
I dont want to see people loose their jobs either . Quinn should not have been sold unless the dept of the company was included in the sale . I agree with Juan- get whatever you can with whatever means you need . If I am to be impoverished by greedy investors and criminal politicians I will go down fighting .
BTW ,,,,,why are the unions not calling for meetings to organise some sort of fight back - too comfortable with their high wage :mad:. One other thing - when there is a shortage of proper leadership and the public is being hammered as we are it leaves a void which is usually filled by extremism . Where are the Fighting Irish ? < just another Paddy joke methinks .

[Derekc]

Good stuff lads - Garrett, my head is being melted because its us , joe public, who will again pay others gambling depts . We are slowly going hungry here . I listened earlier in the year to a report re 2 children looking in bins for food :eek:.
I dont want to see people loose their jobs either . Quinn should not have been sold unless the dept of the company was included in the sale . I agree with Juan- get whatever you can with whatever means you need . If I am to be impoverished by greedy investors and criminal politicians I will go down fighting .
BTW ,,,,,why are the unions not calling for meetings to organise some sort of fight back - too comfortable with their high wage :mad:. One other thing - when there is a shortage of proper leadership and the public is being hammered as we are it leaves a void which is usually filled by extremism . Where are the Fighting Irish ? < just another Paddy joke methinks .

great point about extremism mate, seeing alot of gains in other countries. as you say they tap into void.

[rampant hair]

There is no money left lads, the baby boomers have spent it all. Don't want to sound defeatist, but I really don't think protests are going to do much. All that is left to do now is to make sure politicians and those in responsible positions are held accountable for their actions. The media will have to ensure this.

As for improving the countries' finances, well that boat has sailed. Debt to GDP ratio of 32.4%. Christ on a bike. How are we ever going to grow enough to pay that? We all want better healthcare, less taxes etc etc. Bottom line is, the money is not there and it isn't going to be there for a long time.

I saw one of the developers in Nama yesterday. As he passed our car and the cars behind, he might as well have been totting up the contributions "I've got €500 from them, €500 from them, €500 from them...........

[Juan]

Personally,

I think the fact that over 1,500 jobs were at risk was a consideration when doing the deal which has now been announced for Quinn Insurance. For now at least, all of these jobs have been protected and this in itself, is vital ....

Nonetheless, I sat there wondering to myself, can they turn this business around and make it profitable, so as to put both Anglo (or whatever we're supposed to call it now the signs have been taken down) and the other shareholder(s) can flog it for a profit on their intended investment (€98m from Anglo and €102m from Liberty Mutual, as I have it) ?

All things being equal, the solution reached is probably the best which could have been found in the short term, despite the fact that it would seem the losses to be covered by the state insurance scheme, will ultimately result in a levy being applied on all insurance companies to raise circa €300m, which in turn will mean each of our policies will be loaded up for years to come ...

As I see it here and now, we're paying a "small" levy each on our insurance policies for the next few years, to cover the cost of helping to keep excess 1,500 in jobs. That in turn means we don't have to cover their unemployment costs and they contribute into the tax take for the next few years - it's by far, the lesser of two evils imho.




It seems to me we've a few choices:

- Follow Juan's example above (each one of us will have various levels of success and depending on the strategy adopted, some may end up in deep sh1t too ... though I'm not saying that Juan is proposing something illegal btw)

- Continue to put up with it (we've been taking it up the a$$ for years now, so should prove relatively easy to continue this approach)

- Leave the country (depends on your circumstances, but no doubt about it there's a better life waiting for people in the likes of Canada, Australia etc me thinks)

- Start fighting back .. literally get your a$$ down to your local politicans and give them hell, then repeat the process until they start acting in your best interst.

Some good points about the jobs being saved Garrett,as are the choices facing us..and as you said its the lesser of two evils...as none of us like to see those jobs lost.
We all dont mind paying that little bit extra(those lucky enough to be still in employment)..be it for our childrens education(schools,ect),the health service..and other essential services.Buts its paying for the corrupt bankers and politicians thats most unjust of all.
There is no one bailing out you or me or the ordinary citizens of ireland,yet we are asked to pay....while every day we hear stories about big bonuses..big wages..big payoffs..while we are in big shit.
If there was some sort of will or intent to prosecute white collor crime in this country,then it would be seen as the government doing something,instead of punishing people who are not responsible,and who are up to their eyes in debt.Its a sad state of affairs,and im yet to be convinced about this new government either..despite all the election promises,they will be as bad as the last lot imo,Unfortunately:(

[Red7778]

I think new minister for health asking for the board of HSE to resign was a step in right direction.
Govt are at least starting to make some positive steps after years of dragging heels from previous regime.

[Dzer2]

Too many people here are cushy have a good few gaurds and teachers living around us was talking to them about all the cuts they have taken over the last 2 years. They replied we have to cut back a bit maybe not 3 holidays a year less eating out only change the car every 3 years sh1te like that family down the road husband and wife with 3 kids no one working came up over the winter to help out all he wanted was some fire wood to heat the house. They have not had a holiday in the 12 years they have being together.

[mickdel]

Totally agree with all the comments on her......

[Pimboli]

I work in insurance and the whole thing of insurance levies having to be increased to cover the costs of covering Quinns losses is total bollox.

The since the 80' the fund has been in existance and for the 16 years that I have been working in Insurance we have been collecting 1%, 2% and now 3% on all insurance policies not just motor and household but seemingly there is only €30m in the pot despite collecting money for over 20+ years.

There should easily be enough money in that fund to cover the Quinn losses and them some so where did it all go? spent by the government most likely not thinking it was going to be needed and now it is we get hit again by increasing the levy.

[Garrett]

Very good point Pimboli ...

Out of interest, do you know what the annual level of premiums might have been in recent years, just trying to do a quick back of the envelope estimate on what the levies gathered over the years might be ?

I've now emailed my local politicans that very question as to where the money has all gone and hope many of you do the exact same .... come on everyone, lets start putting some pressure on our local politicans, we've just voted them in to start fixing things and being honest etc FFS !


To help make life easy, here's a link to all of the TDs:

http://www.oireachtas.ie/members-hist/default.asp

- to email them, just use the format: firstname.secondname@oireachtas.ie


Here's a copy of my letter, if any of you want to edit it and use something similar yourselves ...




Dear XXXXXX,

I understand that Quinn Insurance is to be sold to a consortium, consiting of Anglo Irish Bank & Liberty Mutual. Given the options available & times we live in, I'm sure this was the best option available and does safeguard the excess 1,500 jobs involved .. if only for the short term.

During RTE's news report (subsequently also mentioned on various radio stations and in newspapers), there was mention of the Quinn Insurance losses. These losses are to be part covered by the State, from reserves accumulated from historic levies charged on each and every individual general insurance premium, dating back many years and yet, the news reports suggest this fund only has circa €30m available to it.

A simple question to you, which I would ask that you investigate if you cannot tell me the answer please ....

What has happend to all of the funds collected over the years, by way of levies charged on general insurance premiums ?

I am informed that these levies ranged between 1 - 3% charged on every Irish General Insurance Premium, each year, dating back over the years and would have accumulated to far more than €30m, since the fund was last called upon to aid an Insurance Company in distress.

I look forward to your reply and thank you for your assistance.

Kind Regards

Garrett

[reddy]

Will do Garrett. Read the Irish Examiner on me PC a few minutes ago - we will each pay up to 300 euro on our premiums **every** year . That puts me off the road and I got 2 years to go to pay off my credit union car loan ffs . See the price of petrol mate ?? heading for 1.60 a liter and bet you will never see it go back to say 1.00 a liter again - we are being bare faced robbed . Gonna start complaining to my local td"s - gonna ring my insurance tue morn and tell em not to levy me . Somewhere along the line there has to be a tipping point where we take action - the sooner the better :mad:.

[Fantana]

Great to see someone trying to get answers on this kind of thing. One query I would have is where is this figure of €30million coming from? There is hundreds of millions in that fund. Quinn will be drawing nearly €130million from it in the next year. It was initially set up after the collapse of PMPA in the 80s and also ICI. It took well over 10 years to pay off all existing debts from these companies collapse and has rarely been drawn on since, only maybe in the case of someone being left out of pocket by a3rd party not being insured, and even then the ombudsman seeks to recover this. Liberty Mutual are then to put back 25% of their profits over each of the next 5 years to replace the drawings on the fund. The extra levy is a bitch but they obviously need to have sufficient reserves in place in case a similar situation occurs with another company. I would seek clarification in the letter on exact expendable amount versus reserves in this fund

[Garrett]

Hi mate

Just wondering, where did you get the figure of €130m, which you've referred to above ?

Many thanks

[Fantana]

I work in insurance and the whole thing of insurance levies having to be increased to cover the costs of covering Quinns losses is total bollox.

The since the 80' the fund has been in existance and for the 16 years that I have been working in Insurance we have been collecting 1%, 2% and now 3% on all insurance policies not just motor and household but seemingly there is only €30m in the pot despite collecting money for over 20+ years.

There should easily be enough money in that fund to cover the Quinn losses and them some so where did it all go? spent by the government most likely not thinking it was going to be needed and now it is we get hit again by increasing the levy.

Hi mate

Just wondering, where did you get the figure of €130m, which you've referred to above ?

Many thanks


£130million is the first amount they'll draw late in 2011. That original figure is sterling, my apologies, which equates to around €180million. They won't draw the needed €600million all at once as it would deplete the reserves. I have a lot of connections within Quinn and other insurance companies so those were the details on the industry release yesterday

[Anfield Old Boys]

Nothing to be sorry about,as you speak the truth. And it will get worse...unfortunately.
I made a decision a few years ago that what the government take from me ..then i will take it back through other ways and means.
Just sorry i didnt follow the politicians example sooner.

I been coming to the same conclusions we will never get the Govt that will do the right things for the right reasons...always politics in there somewhere...I also doubt if Irish people will support the right things...look at all those who stood up for Lowry recently...absolutely shocking...he should have been f*ucked out of the Dail...another idiot Senator Donie Cassidy retiring after doing nothing in the Seanad for years on a massive pension...read all about Donie's wisdom below...

http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13705

Even rifts between Boyd Barret and Joe Higgins reported in the latest edition of the Phoenix...again politics... who is seen to be leader of the left ..and as we slowly creep towards default who gets screwed ...ordinary Irish people..after the FF allowed an economic coup d'etat on this country...

In a similar way I am looking at increasing my income looking at different tax breaks, makingh a few bob from shares...I am close to not caring any more as we get so many idiots running this country...its just me looking after me missus and me girls...

[reddy]

Totally agree with all the comments on her......



Read your reply mate - then noticed the two little lads underneath - laughed out loud . Been there :D.

[Garrett]

£130million is the first amount they'll draw late in 2011. That original figure is sterling, my apologies, which equates to around €180million. They won't draw the needed €600million all at once as it would deplete the reserves. I have a lot of connections within Quinn and other insurance companies so those were the details on the industry release yesterday


Hi mate,

Thanks for that.

I had understood from various news reports that there was only approx €30m in the fund at this time ... clearly the fund increses / decreases depending on whats happening but your figures suggest there is much more in the actual fund now. Is that the case, do you know ?

My suspicion & fear is that while the fund will ultimately pick up the tab, it will effectively borrow what it doesn't have, until such time as we (everyone taking an insurance policy out and paying an annual levy) effectively repay it in the years to come.

[MucklaghFC]

Have ye read the latest book on Seanie Fitzpatrick? There's a full chapter on "The Mighty Quinn". Even as far back as 2000 , Sean Quinn managed to lose £40m on a turnover of £128m -the main reason for the losses was losses on speculative share investments that he had made in the dot com bubble.
Luckily for Quinn Life those losses were recovered as the Celtic Tiger boomed in the mid 2000's. THen what happens?? He does it all over again!!!
Incredible:eek::eek:. His record on Corporate Governance is appalling.
But sure he was a "dacent fella" who liked nothing better than playing a simple game of cards for 10p....
I cannot believe how people still look up to this idiot! Yes he created jobs in the depressed Cavan area but Jaysus we're all going to have to pay (again) for his rank stupidity...

[Garrett]

Created jobs but treats staff very poorly. I'm speaking from knowledge of the insurance side rather than the wider Quinn group. Most are on very poor basic wages and then given ridiculous unoptainable target based bonuses. Doesn't offer sick pay in any form and only started to offer maternity leave in the last few years after he was taken to court over it. Also docks staff wages for making errors such as spelling mistakes on files or incorrect addresses. It was a culture of fear and exploitation for workers there and he could get away with it as he was the only show in town.


Much like Ryanair, for example, then .....

He who pays the piper, calls the tune though and clearly the number of people working for both Quinn and Ryanair, demonstates that all things being equal, it must not be the worst place in the world to work.

(I've no connection with either company btw)

[Garrett]

Great to see someone trying to get answers on this kind of thing. One query I would have is where is this figure of €30million coming from? There is hundreds of millions in that fund. Quinn will be drawing nearly €130million from it in the next year. It was initially set up after the collapse of PMPA in the 80s and also ICI. It took well over 10 years to pay off all existing debts from these companies collapse and has rarely been drawn on since, only maybe in the case of someone being left out of pocket by a3rd party not being insured, and even then the ombudsman seeks to recover this. Liberty Mutual are then to put back 25% of their profits over each of the next 5 years to replace the drawings on the fund. The extra levy is a bitch but they obviously need to have sufficient reserves in place in case a similar situation occurs with another company. I would seek clarification in the letter on exact expendable amount versus reserves in this fund


Hi mate,

Here is the response I have now had back - it would appear there has been no levy charged on insurance premiums in recent years, if accurate.



Garrett

Many thanks for your email.

The Insurance Compensation Fund can be financed by a small levy on non-life insurance premium income in circumstances. It was established under the Insurance Act 1964 was used in previous insurance company administrations in 1983 and 1985. The insurance levy has not been in operation since 31 December 1992.

There has been - and still is - a stamp duty of 2% on life insurance premiums which was introduced in 1982 and which forms part of the general stamp duty receipts, being paid into the Central Fund along with other tax receipts. However, this should not be confused with the insurance levy introduced to deal with PMPA and ICI crisis in the 1980's.

Kind Regards

Richard Bruton





Credit to the man (Richard Bruton), I appreciated him returning to me with this information, even if he had a staff member do the research etc .... along with other responses from my other local TDs, also pledging to return to me.

[Fantana]

Hi mate,

Here is the response I have now had back - it would appear there has been no levy charged on insurance premiums in recent years, if accurate.





Credit to the man (Richard Bruton), I appreciated him returning to me with this information, even if he had a staff member do the research etc .... along with other responses from my other local TDs, also pledging to return to me.

There's a 3% government levy on all non life insurance policies at present. This was raised from 2% about 2 years ago. Not sure if this letter has been drafted correctly at all?