Anyone watching it tonight. I think Labour are going to **** up my dream of a left govt of some type.They are sounding more and more like FG. Only Doherty did something different and got savaged by all 3 of them on the panel. FF/FG really are the same with a different gace on the poster. Depressing.
I'd have no problem with SF only that they country would spontaniously combust if they were anywhere near government. Doherty is towing a party line thats he knows deep down is bullshit and hasnt a chance of working.Pulling out of the EU,let the banks sink and run the country on what remains of the pension reserve fund,madness.They also want to tax the bollocks out of the rich who'll bail out of the country and and the highly skilled will **** off too if there been taxed to the hilt. Between Adams disaster on economic issues this morning and O Snodaigh comments on passing th finance bill the weekend theres serious mixed messages coming from them and its damaging
Agree mate. I see it as a case of SF needing time to learn the true art of politics, not in terms of the negotiations they've been through up North, but more in terms of how they manage the public at large,the economy etc. There's no doubt they deserve credit for helping ensure peace in the North (as do the other parties, to be fair) In the future, I'd be happy to see SF as a republican party in power here, but only when they are ready.... sadly, as you correctly point out, if they got in now and controlled the government, they'd create even bigger problems with their mad ideas about defaulting on national debt etc.
Iceland defaulted did they not,now has an unemployment rate of 7%,changed the way they work so as it never happens again.They allowed their banks to fail. Can we all stop patronising all sf members,workers,and elected officials.We are in govt,we are offering something different,we dont need to learn how to work big boy politics. The country is fcuked and its down to the policies of the 3 main parties and they are again offering a lovely cosey cartel. Iceland’s President Olafur R. Grimsson said his country is better off than Ireland thanks to the government’s decision to allow the banks to fail two years ago and because the krona could be devalued. “The difference is that in Iceland we allowed the banks to fail,†Grimsson said in an interview with Bloomberg Television’s Mark Barton today. “These were private banks and we didn’t pump money into them in order to keep them going; the state did not shoulder the responsibility of the failed private banks.†Ireland’s Prime Minister Brian Cowen said this week his government has discussed an 85 billion-euro ($112 billion) bailout with the European Union and International Monetary Fund after the country’s banks threatened to bring the euro member to the brink of bankruptcy. Iceland’s banks, which still owe creditors about $85 billion, were split to create domestic units needed to keep the financial system running, while foreign liabilities remained within the failed lenders. As a consequence, “Iceland is faring much better than anybody expected,†Grimsson said. The Icelandic state’s liability on foreign depositor claims stemming from Icesave accounts at failed Landsbanki Islands hf should be put to a national referendum, he said. “How far can we ask ordinary people -- farmers and fishermen and teachers and doctors and nurses -- to shoulder the responsibility of failed private banks,†said Grimsson. “That question, which has been at the core of the Icesave issue, will now be the burning issue in many European countries.†Accept Losses Iceland is relying on a $4.6 billion IMF-led loan to rebuild its economy. Grimsson said today the government may not need the entire amount. Bondholders of European banks should be prepared to accept losses because voters are becoming increasingly unwilling and unable to fund bailouts, FXPro Financial Services Ltd. said in a Nov. 24 note. “The taxpayer has no realistic prospect of being able to save their banks, such is the magnitude of their bad loans and their extraordinary dependence on central bank support,†wrote Michael Derks, chief strategist in London at foreign-exchange firm FXPro. “Both junior and senior bondholders in these insolvent banks need to suffer huge haircuts,†he said. Forcing bond holders to “share the burden,†may help the euro region remain intact, Derks wrote. Junk Grimsson, who said Iceland’s talks to join the European Union are ongoing, in January this year blocked a $5.2 billion deal to cover British and Dutch depositor claims stemming from Icesave accounts. The move prompted Fitch Ratings to downgrade the island’s debt to “junk†as a normalization of international relations grew more remote. Iceland’s Finance Ministry on Nov. 16 said the country may now be weeks away from a “final resolution†to the Icesave dispute as it secures broad lawmaker backing for a new accord. Kaupthing Bank hf, Landsbanki and Glitnir Bank hf failed within weeks of each other in October 2008 after they were unable to secure short-term funding. The banking crisis led to an 80 percent slump in the krona against the euro offshore, until the slump was stemmed by the introduction of capital controls at the end of 2008. Kaupthing’s winding-up committee today said it finished dealing with claims lodged against it. The bank is dealing with a total of 28,167 claims filed by creditors across 119 countries totaling 7.32 trillion kronur ($63 billion), it said in a statement today. To contact the reporter on this story: Omar Valdimarsson in London at valdimarsson@bloomberg.net
default is mathematically inevitable. shit will only hit the fan when the dollar defaults. only reason it hasnt defaulted yet is coz its the worlds reserve currency but with china and russia pulling out of it , its only a matter of time. maybe then people will have a look at establishing a real monetary system. iceland did the right thing, they defaulted on debt created out of thin air. fake debt from a fake monetary system. we seem to want to clown around in it for a few more years at least
Hi We're stuck with what was once bank debt, but now national debt - as such, it's a soverign responsibility, not a debt by an independent company. Too late to reverse that bit, so no point in considering it now - could have been done with Anglo before the Government decided to step in, but thats a different issue. If we defaulted now, we're fuked - credit lines from IMF etc are cut off and suddenly there is no cash in our ATMs, no money in our banks to fund payment of mortgages, utility bills, groceries etc. What does everyone do then ? Our nation is part of the EU and has made certain financial commitments, as part of it's membership including the level of national debt it will maintain. We've been granted special permission to go about the traditionally agreed level for a few years - now we say fuk dat and default, what happens then, maybe get fuked out of Europe ? - say that does happen, the euro currency is no longer the legal currency in Ireland, what we do we use for currency the next day ? (eh print more, that will take time, will have to be backed by gold reserves in our central bank which itself will have to be untangled from the Euro etc etc) - imagine we've done all that, what happens then, our new currency is worth sweet fuk all, so we've to pay massive amounts of money for our imports, be they fuel like petrol, foods from abroad, clothes, cars etc etc etc .... massive inflation, no one has enough dosh to survive so there's massive pressure on employers to raise salaries (from those lucky enough to have a job right now) ... OK, so that happens, some get pay rises, while others see the companies that employed them unable to afford the pay demands and forced to close, then we've even higher unemployment and fuk all new companies coming into Ireland to create jobs, because of massive inflation, massive salary demands and dare I mention high taxes ? ... Taxes, how could we forget these - the country has to be run on something and needs dosh to survive, be it pay the civil servants, run the hospitals, the schools, fill the potholes on the roads etc etc. With less people employed or earning, the taxes they pay will have to be increased to pay for the cost of running the country. Physically, this is becoming impossible due to the low numbers now employed. OK, the government cuts costs as best it can, but ultimately can cut no more and still needs dosh, so it says right we'll borrow some money on the international money markets or from other nations ... those good people who we told to get stuffed, last time they lent us money and we defaulted on our soverign debt ... what do you think they might tell us this time ???? - we've been forced down a certain path everyone & now we are too far down this path, to turn back. We must try and improve the situation we are in, but defaulting on the national debt is not an option imho for the simple scenarios mentioned in this post. Sorry, but we've all got a massive national debt to try and fund. It's going to be a long hard road and in my view, the only way to get started is take the pain, then start selling publically owned assets such as Bord Gais, ESB etc to help repay a bit of the debt. With a bit of luck, we'll find further gas offshore somewhere and sell the rights to extract it for further money, to again go towards the national debt. 2013 may see a change in rules allowing nations in the EU to default on certain types of debt, in special circumstances - odds are, our deal won't be included as we borrowed from the IMF / EU prior to it being established, but it may result in helping us renegotiate a lower interest rate on part of the money we owe. Thats about it as I see it ... sorry
Economist David McWilliams says Sinn Féin's Pearse Doherty makes absolute sense - Clip from Ray Darcy Show here. http://youtu.be/jqjGV7xN2Hs
youre right there garret, its not an option, its a mathematical guarentee. the monetary system is deeply flawed and we along with every nation on the planet will collapse and default under this system. so the question is when not if we default. - this is the age old argument that is completely false......tell me how much of our taxes go to paying these now?? sweet **** all, out taxes are been sucked out of the country to pay interest on imaginary debt. this will increase year by year and is mathematically guarenteed to happen!! our BORROWING is paying for the items you mention above. cmon now wake up Our debt is not sovereign , it can be reversed if the people really want it reversed no matter what "laws" or bill have been passed...again its not the main point though and irrelevant to the root cause of the problem oh and who gives a **** about IMF? who needs their blood money? money that they print out of thin air........you of all people should know where money comes from.they are a group of financial terrorists and nothing more. they enter countries on their knees and squeeze the last drop of blood out of them i could rebut or give a solution to every statemtment you have made above, and i will if you want me to, but its all irrelevant when the monetary system is so flawed , its designed to fail. you missed my whole point...ill repeat it in a shorter sentence default is mathematically inevitable. its guaranteed. our debt is fake and it comes from a fake monetary system that is designed to fail.
However that should not be read as a glowing recommendation of SF economic and financial policies...There is a thread on this on P.ie As one poster there correctly pointed out "Also, having listened to the clip - McWilliams agrees with Doherty in that the current scenario is difficult in the sense of moral hazard, but does not give an endorsement of SF policy on the economy in terms of how to run the country " http://www.politics.ie/sinn-fein/149746-david-mcwilliams-pearse-doherty-makes-absolute-sense.html
interesting that all 3 parties have acccused SF of being clueless then a major economist says we are bang on.And all of a sudden he is "not endorsing"their policies. Its almost like SF are offering something different that ruffles some feathers so a good old fashioned media beat down is needed. How long before some Ira links in the Sindo is attached to Doherty or some like.Cant have these Shinners getting above their station.
thats exactly what happened ....but i wonder why sinn fein wont touch shell to sea with a barge pole? or any of them for that matter. they are all a disgrace
I heard a bit of McWilliams yesterday, he reckons talk of banks and deposits vanashing overnight were we to default is a load of rubbish. If we default, banks will continue as normal and he compared it to Iceland and explained how no banks stopped working overnight and cash was available to withdraw etc I find this strange also, can you fill us in on what the deal is with that oil? Why was it signed away? No doubt something corrupt will come into it but what was the explanation given at the time?
What annoys me is this constant persecution complex that SF constantly portrays and you post ably demonstrates! With other polictial parties if there position is questioned they respond by debating it or drilling down further into what their position actually is. With SF they immediately turn to the fact that nobody likes them and they move the debate away from the issue and into their percieved persecution by others. We have seen that over the last few days with Grizzly following the fallout from his RTE 1 interview with Leo V.
Sinn Fein were fairly on board with the Shell to Sea crowd in the beginning but to be honest i dont think it worked out to well.Some lunatics involved in that movement,having been to a few protests about it i can attest to that Sinn Fein have met with Shell and Statoil to outline their opposition to the way companies operate in Ireland. This is one of the reasons why Sinn Féin opposes the Finance Bill 2008 as it maintains these very conditions for gas exploration companies. Pearse Doherty “I also made clear Sinn Féin’s opposition to the Rossport gas pipeline and to the dangers is poses. There are a number of drills coming up off the coast of Donegal from April. It is proposed that any gas found will be refined onshore. Sinn Féin will oppose the refinement of this gas onshore as it will require a similar dangerous pipeline to run through communities in Donegal.“Sinn Féin supports the establishment of a State owned Gas exploration company to maximise the benefits of Ireland’s natural resources for the benefit of the Irish people.†Read all the latest Sinn Féin press releases online by clicking on NEWSROOM at www.sinnfein.ie SINN Féin has called for the release of Shell to Sea’s Pat O’Donnell from prison, describing him as a “principled man†who has genuine concerns about the Corrib gas project, writes Marian Harrison. Mayo councillors Gerry Murray, Rose Conway Walsh and Thérése Ruane and TD Martin Ferris visited the Rossport fisherman in Castlerea Prison last week. The group said there was “no useful purpose†served by the detention of Mr O’Donnell and called for his immediate release. They also renewed their call for the suspension of all oil and gas exploration licences which were issued under the terms and conditions introduced by the former energy minister Ray Burke in 1987. “Look at the contrast between the potential for economic prosperity contained in the reserves that lie off our coast with the current cut backs in public spending. “It’s ironic that those bankers and developers who are responsible for plundering billions from Irish taxpayers are celebrating in their mansions throughout the world while Pat O’Donnell is locked up in jail separated from his wife and children,†said Deputy Ferris. I dont think Sinn Fein haved backed away from the campaign but there is an election that needs fighting and more party resources put into that.
no other parties dont.How many times have sf members been called Sf/ira and did you see joan burton attacking pearse doherty. Sinn Fein have been economic fools,yet our party costed real proposals an many economists agree with us and still the same rhetoric exists. In the meeting about the Finance bill,Doherty was basically told Fcuk off.He was elected on the basis that he offers something different and when the other parties set up their little cosy agreement they could have the shinners ruining it for them. Sinn Fein had to take the Govt to the high court to run a fcuking bye election ffs. If it wasnt for the technical group the election wouldnt be an election so soon. What worries me the most is the Labour party that is leading the attacks,when in fact they should be trying to work with SF and not FFlite in Fine Gael.
Let not open up the SF/IRA debate! I didn't see the debate with Pearse and Joan, but being attacked by Joan is "like being mauled by a dead sheep!" What other economists, aside from DMcW on a partial basis, agree with you guys?
Soros,rogoff,roubini,stieglitz and many others.But hey the IMF/EU must be right eh? Taken from another poster: There are a few problems here.. the main being the political rise of SF.. this is frightening the lives out of FF and Labour supporters especially, because it is into their political base that SF are eating.. and, a close look at how SF did this to the SDLP in the 6 counties, has put them on guard to the fact that once SF gain a foothold, it can be very difficult to remove them. So, they will find a way of attacking SF. Heretofore, it was the standard, "they are terrorists who blew up babies and have no respect for the law and what to bring down the state and don't recognise the courts yadda yadda yadda etc".. and that worked.. for quite a long time. Now however, its not working anymore, because the newest cohort of voters, the 18-35 y olds, have grown up in a time politically, where the Troubles are over, and SF are more than effectively using the courts as in cases like the bye election challenge.. so that line is proving moot.. So SF's political opponents have moved onto "they know nothing about the economy" So lets look at that one.. FF say SF economic policies will destroy the economy, and SF can't be let near the levers of power because of this.. When is someone going to point out, that basically the economy is completely bolli**d because of FF economic policies, not SF's. I mean lets be completely honest.. could SF have possibly made a worse job of the economy than FF ? As far as the "burn the bondholders" call is made.. as more and more economists are pointing out, this is actually a very legitimate call. Why should taxpayers pay for banks losses ? The banks borrowed money from other banks.. lent it recklessly.. and lost a fortune.. tough I have a mortgage from the banks.. I borrowed.. I gambled.. if I can't pay that mortgage this month.. does someone come in and bail me out ? We have private debt and sovereign debt.. the biggest problem with the sovereign debt, is that it has been tied to the private debt.. I don't want to, and shouldn't have to pay for mistakes made by some brokerage firm in Germany or France, because they thought Sean Fitzpatrick was some kind of modern day Croesus.. let them lie the loss of their money And when we disengage the debt.. we'll move on and get funding from different bondholders.. because we'll actually be able to pay that debt back
Just said live on Bloomberg today George Soros has just called for the urgent renegotiation of Ireland's bailout terms. He says it's patently unjust that the public here should bare the full cost of the rescue plan while bondholders pay nothing. In an interview with Bloomberg, he went on to say that that waiting until 2013 to tackle the problem would risk the economic and social cohesion of the EU. Can we all kop and now realise what the EU/IMF is doing to us. This is George Fcuking Soros saying this,kind of a big deal