Any Public servants striking tomorrow

[Aido82]

Dont really want to strike but dont wanna pass the picket.

anyone else in the same situation

[smiley1987]

my mothers partner is on strike tomorrow and he is glad that they have a chance to send the government a message tomorrow

[born red 79]

Well my mum is. She drives this bus for disabled people. takes them out shopping, gets a few dressed in the mornings an that. She refuses to pass the picket line so has asked to keep the bus at her house so she can still get people up out of bed an that. If that fails she's goin to just make her way to people who badly need her as in literally can't move

[born red 79]

I'm in a "non politically affilliated organisation" as i was told today so no strike for us.

[scousepaddy]

so who is striking?

[smiley1987]

my mothers partner will be he got the 6 in the morning till 1 o clock strike and i know this strike will cripple because its all civil servants from the staff that work in dail eireann like my mothers partner to health staff and educational staff and anyone else that is paid by the state except the garda and army staff as it against their contract to strike

[SUPERFAN]

just back from my shift on the picket.i think everyone was a bit apprehensive and worried about the reaction we were going to get from the passing public but i can honestly say there was nothing but support shown to us all morning.
looks like the public/private divide the govt tried to manufacture is not working...

[Aido82]

fair play willie
did many pass the picket, was there any reaction

[SUPERFAN]

fair play willie
did many pass the picket, was there any reaction

no one passed our picket but a truck went in to the place across the road,at that stage they had no one outside their gate.a few of us were going to go over and stop the truck from coming back out but it wasn't really our business so we left it...

[Liverpool-law]

It is people's right to strike and send a message but to be honest I don't think it will change anything. It's right to stand up for what you believe in but I don't think the government will be too bothered by it.

[SUPERFAN]

I don't think the government will be too bothered by it.
they will be if it turns in to a 2-3-4 day,all out strike...

[travis]

What's everyone striking for anyway.. haven't been listening to the news in a while.. traffic was great this morning by the way :D:D

[byrnetred]

they will be if it turns in to a 2-3-4 day,all out strike...i dont think many of the public service could afford to go out on a 4 day strike

especially all the ones who earn 30k a year and the ones whos partner have recently lost their jobs

[GaryMc]

Has there been any information on the potential pay cuts? Is it at all levels?

Surely get at middle management who earn a fortune for doin feck all. Leave the people who provide valuable services alone and get at the pen pushers.

10% pay cuts for anyone in Public Sector over 70k would be a lot better than a 5% paycut for all.

[Liverpool-law]

10% pay cuts for anyone in Public Sector over 70k would be a lot better than a 5% paycut for all.

It's about making up the numbers. The problem with trying to ONLY cut/tax the higher earners is that there is less people who earn in that bracket, so you won't make enough of a saving/tax income. By all means the higher paid should get a higher burden but the numbers don't add up until the bulk of workers take some cut. That is basic economics but I still expect to be attacked for stating this...

[Kev03]

How many will be doing their Christmas Shopping - Dundrum and the likes is packed i'd say - born red 79's Mam and those doing good work not included but I have been in Plannning Offices and the likes - lots of tea slurping, biscuit eating and chatting . . . .

[SUPERFAN]

i dont think many of the public service could afford to go out on a 4 day strike

especially all the ones who earn 30k a year and the ones whos partner have recently lost their jobs

my attitude and that of all the people picketing with me this morning is that it's better to take a few weeks of hits in november and december of this year than to take a year of hits after the budget.
a 5+% hit in your annual wages is a hell of a lot more than a few days/weeks hit...

[vincenzo]

The father and brother are both in the council and are out on picket today with my full support. The brother reckons that if he has to take a 5% paycut he'll be earning less than he did when he started 4 years ago. I doubt you could say the same for any of our beloved politicians.

[padski08]

Why could this not be done on Saturday?

My other half works in after school on a school premises. She is not public sector and has already suffered 20% pay decrease and these strike days are costing her days pay as they cant cross the picket

She cannot afford the day off but has no choice - why not do it on a Saturday?

[bobby benitez]

Why could this not be done on Saturday?

My other half works in after school on a school premises. She is not public sector and has already suffered 20% pay decrease and these strike days are costing her days pay as they cant cross the picket

She cannot afford the day off but has no choice - why not do it on a Saturday?

Because most of them dont work Saturdays, that would make it a protest and not a strike.

Anyway Tuesday is a great day to go to Newry :rolleyes: . 5 mile tailbacks into Newry today, that doesnt look good in PR terms.

[SUPERFAN]

Why could this not be done on Saturday?

My other half works in after school on a school premises. She is not public sector and has already suffered 20% pay decrease and these strike days are costing her days pay as they cant cross the picket

She cannot afford the day off but has no choice - why not do it on a Saturday?

can only speak for meself but i only work monday to friday so i can't go on strike on saturday.i'm sure most people working in the public sector (certainly teachers) are the same...

[SUPERFAN]

Anyway Tuesday is a great day to go to Newry :rolleyes: . 5 mile tailbacks into Newry today, that doesnt look good in PR terms.

and last night was a great night to go to copperface jacks..:rolleyes:

[Anfield Old Boys]

so who is striking?

I was out today did my shift on the picket line early today....

[bobby benitez]

and last night was a great night to go to copperface jacks..:rolleyes:

Town was packed lastnight now that you mention it.

[padski08]

Because most of them dont work Saturdays, that would make it a protest and not a strike.

Anyway Tuesday is a great day to go to Newry :rolleyes: . 5 mile tailbacks into Newry today, that doesnt look good in PR terms.

I understand most dont work Saturdays but why should others suffer because of this strike. While i do have sympathy of course, ive taken a 12% pay cut and she has taken 20% pay cut - but im still working every day and happy that i am. I dont see why they couldnt protest instead of strike

3/12/09 set to be another day of no pay - she wont get the benifit from this strike but has to suffer the wrath. Also, with after school being closed, other off school after school premises are open to take kids today - losing more business and putting her job in further jeopardy!

Heard about tail backs too - alot people on a jolly day

[SUPERFAN]

another day's strike planned for thursday week,if the govt take no notice after that there should be at least a 3 day strike after the budget...

[bobby benitez]

just back from my shift on the picket.i think everyone was a bit apprehensive and worried about the reaction we were going to get from the passing public but i can honestly say there was nothing but support shown to us all morning.
looks like the public/private divide the govt tried to manufacture is not working...

You would have to agree that 5 mile tailbacks into Newry on the day of the strike doesnt look good.

[padski08]

another day's strike planned for thursday week,if the govt take no notice after that there should be at least a 3 day strike after the budget...

While this may benifit you or other, there are others who cant afford this, who will not get the benifit of this strike (if there is one)

[SUPERFAN]

I dont see why they couldnt protest instead of strike


protests are pointless.there's been 2 big protests,i in february and 1 a few weeks ago and they got us nowhere.

[Liverpool-law]

ive taken a 12% pay cut and she has taken 20% pay cut - but im still working every day and happy that i am. I dont see why they couldnt protest instead of strike

Heard about tail backs too - alot people on a jolly day

Major cuts right across the private sector (30% down myself) and our pension provider could turn around when we retire and tell us we have f-all in our pensions because of the market but public service pensions are guaranteed. Also there are no job losses in the public sector but people in the private sector are losing jobs left right and centre. I think a 5% cut is par for the course and not unreasonable in the circumstances.

[rkdanny]

Just in from my picket duty shift. My shift gets the rain downpour Grrr !
Lot's of support today from the passing public...That's twice i've striked in the freezing cold. I hear more strikes planned !!

[padski08]

protests are pointless.there's been 2 big protests,i in february and 1 a few weeks ago and they got us nowhere.

Ok i understand

But this is not helping your cause:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1124/newry.html

Strike provides boost for Newry shops
Tuesday, 24 November 2009 16:42
The public sector strike has provided a boost for shops across the border in Newry.


There were long tailbacks of traffic heading into the town and to the local shopping centres this afternoon.


Many of those in Newry were on strike or are parents with children who were forced to take the day off school.


AdvertisementThe exodus of shoppers may cause some embarrassment for unions, which said up to 250,000 teachers, nurses and other public sector workers were taking part in the strike against the plans of the Government to cut their pay.

The managers of shopping centres on the northern side of the border said business was similar to weekend or pre-Christmas peaks.

Speaking on RTÉ's News at One, manager of Buttercrane Shopping Centre Peter Murray said: '(It) is a direct result of the day of (strike) action. There are no strike specials.'

Social and Family Affairs Minister Mary Hanafin has said anyone who chose to shop north of the border today should reflect on the damage they are doing to the economy.

Ms Hanafin said she understood that everyone was currently seeking the best value when doing their shopping but people should think of the consequences when deciding where to go.





I support genuine cause but not people on a jolly at expense of others. Like ive said, my gf is set to lose out on days pay, loss of business if strike continues and a more insecure job than before because of this

[SUPERFAN]

You would have to agree that 5 mile tailbacks into Newry on the day of the strike doesnt look good.

when most/every school in the country was closed?
ideal time for people to take their kids up north for xmas shopping,clothes/shoes etc.
looks like loads had the same idea and it backfired.:D

[SUPERFAN]

I support genuine cause but not people on a jolly at expense of others. Like ive said, my gf is set to lose out on days pay, loss of business if strike continues and a more insecure job than before because of this

i honestly don't see where you're coming from with the "jolly" remark or how it could be at the expense of others padski.
anyone on strike today is losing a day's pay and are doing it at their own expense...

[padski08]

Major cuts right across the private sector (30% down myself) and our pension provider could turn around when we retire and tell us we have f-all in our pensions because of the market but public service pensions are guaranteed. Also there are no job losses in the public sector but people in the private sector are losing jobs left right and centre. I think a 5% cut is par for the course and not unreasonable in the circumstances.

My sentinments exactly

[Aido82]

Major cuts right across the private sector (30% down myself) and our pension provider could turn around when we retire and tell us we have f-all in our pensions because of the market but public service pensions are guaranteed. Also there are no job losses in the public sector but people in the private sector are losing jobs left right and centre. I think a 5% cut is par for the course and not unreasonable in the circumstances.

My sentinments exactly

Let me remind you, that people that work in the Public sector, are on a wage scale, you start at the bottom and increment every now and then. again you start at the bottom

Was everybody whinging and moaning when the country was booming, no, did you know that when the country was booming the public sector was actually lower paid than the private sector. We dont get bonuses either.

And let me also remind you that it is not because of the public sector that the country is in the shit, its the banks over lending to builders and the builders pure greed to make a profit.

You state you have had a 30% cut, in the public sector we have union fees, pensions levy and the tax rate cuts, prob not at the 30% but surly you can see that more cuts in the PS is just unfair, once again it is the average people bailing out the banks and builders.

An extra 5% of people wages and i dont think it would be worth me working anymore, Car loans, house rent/mortage, weekly expensives, car insurance monthly, NOT EVERYONE IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE ARE ON BIG MONEY, that is the fact that some people dont understand, the media portray the PS as overpaid and underworked people, not the case for the majority

sorry for the rant

[RastaRed]

Let me remind you, that people that work in the Public sector, are on a wage scale, you start at the bottom and increment every now and then. again you start at the bottom

Was everybody whinging and moaning when the country was booming, no, did you know that when the country was booming the public sector was actually lower paid than the private sector. We dont get bonuses either.

And let me also remind you that it is not because of the public sector that the country is in the shit, its the banks over lending to builders and the builders pure greed to make a profit.

You state you have had a 30% cut, in the public sector we have union fees, pensions levy and the tax rate cuts, prob not at the 30% but surly you can see that more cuts in the PS is just unfair, once again it is the average people bailing out the banks and builders.

An extra 5% of people wages and i dont think it would be worth me working anymore, Car loans, house rent/mortage, weekly expensives, car insurance monthly, NOT EVERYONE IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE ARE ON BIG MONEY, that is the fact that some people dont understand, the media portray the PS as overpaid and underworked people, not the case for the majority

sorry for the rant

+100

I took a civil servant job 10 years ago for the security and the pension while all my mates laughed while they earned their tenner a brick, earned 3 times what I earned a week etc and now they want me to take yet another pay cut, bollix. I'm earning fcuk all as it is and have 4 kids and another on the way to support and theres no fcuking way Im taking the blame for the mess that this shower of muppets left us in, we have to fight them all the way.
GET UP STAND UP, STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHTS

[padski08]

i honestly don't see where you're coming from with the "jolly" remark or how it could be at the expense of others padski.
anyone on strike today is losing a day's pay and are doing it at their own expense...

My 'jolly' remark was not directed at yourself Superfan, but at plenty of people who clearly took advantage of strike day to do shopping etc. If your going to strike, i thought purpose was to make your feelings heard byt having large pickets etc.
While there was many picketing, many more just saw this as a day off

Yes you lost a days pay, but this was YOUR choice! It was not forced upon you by anyone. Yes i realise that you are doing it as you think it is the better good but my gf simply cannot afford to be told she is not getting paid for a day(s) workdue to this. If this continues, her work (which is struggling with numbers already) will lose kids as there are other creches off school premises that operate as they do not have to cross pickets

People voted for this strike, so cant complain about not being paid for it imo

Let me remind you, that people that work in the Public sector, are on a wage scale, you start at the bottom and increment every now and then. again you start at the bottom

Was everybody whinging and moaning when the country was booming, no, did you know that when the country was booming the public sector was actually lower paid than the private sector. We dont get bonuses either.

And let me also remind you that it is not because of the public sector that the country is in the shit, its the banks over lending to builders and the builders pure greed to make a profit.

You state you have had a 30% cut, in the public sector we have union fees, pensions levy and the tax rate cuts, prob not at the 30% but surly you can see that more cuts in the PS is just unfair, once again it is the average people bailing out the banks and builders.

An extra 5% of people wages and i dont think it would be worth me working anymore, Car loans, house rent/mortage, weekly expensives, car insurance monthly, NOT EVERYONE IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE ARE ON BIG MONEY, that is the fact that some people dont understand, the media portray the PS as overpaid and underworked people, not the case for the majority

sorry for the rant

I started in the private sector at the bottom also and only beginning to get anywhere now. I have not had an incriment in 2 years and my wages are down also. I am not getting a bonus this year but i am happy to have my job so have taken these cuts without complaint.

I realise the public sector didnt put the country in this state, the government did but the way i see it:

The government is like a company, when they have plenty of money to spend, they can spend it, when times get tough they need to cut back (just like my company), hence my pay cut

I pay a pension from my own bank account of which my employer pays nothing. You choose to pay union fees also so this is not a complaint imo - if you 'had' to join a union, dont join the company if unhappy with union fees

Im down wages, no guaranteed pension, no bonuses, no incriment - im not striking, merely happy to be working at this stage

Sorry for ranting, i have sympathy with others, but we all have to suffer for what others did to us :o

Paddy

[Aido82]

i wonder how many of the builders that borrowed the money, do they have millions in other accounts that they cant touch.

If this was the states, the builders and the bankers would be doing time for the mess they got us into

[SUPERFAN]

My 'jolly' remark was not directed at yourself Superfan, but at plenty of people who clearly took advantage of strike day to do shopping etc. If your going to strike, i thought purpose was to make your feelings heard byt having large pickets etc.
While there was many picketing, many more just saw this as a day off
i knew the "jolly remark wasn't directed at me.
a lot of people were on strike yesterday that also had kids that needed to be looked after cos they were off school so it would've been very hard for them to make their feelings heared or join the pickets.loads of lads where i work were unable to join the picket.
if those people decided to go to the north pole to do a bit of shopping yesterday that's their own business as far as i'm concerned...

[SUPERFAN]

+100

I took a civil servant job 10 years ago for the security and the pension while all my mates laughed while they earned their tenner a brick, earned 3 times what I earned a week

spot on mate.i bet no one threw in to your face 10 years ago that you had a job for life or that you were guaranteed a pension when you retired?
i'm 13 years in my job and when i took it 1st my mates laughed at me,it was very ironic 10 years later when those same people realised the party was ending and were trying to get a PS job....

[padski08]

spot on mate.i bet no one threw in to your face 10 years ago that you had a job for life or that you were guaranteed a pension when you retired?
i'm 13 years in my job and when i took it 1st my mates laughed at me,it was very ironic 10 years later when those same people realised the party was ending and were trying to get a PS job....

Would love both of these things!

My point is that we all have to take cuts for other peoples mess, my choice is take the cut or someone else could be brought in that will work for that wage - so im happy to do what i can to keep my job for now

I will not support a strike that is going to directly jeopordise a job of someone close to me - end of

[SUPERFAN]

Would love both of these things!


you could've had them,you were just as entitled to apply for a PS job as anyone else in this country.i could've got a better paid job all those years ago but there was no long term security so i chose to apply for a PS job...

[The Chanter]

looks like the public/private divide the govt tried to manufacture is not working...

I doubt that to be honest, based on reading some of the posts in this thread and from chatting with people.

[Liverpool-law]

I doubt that to be honest, based on reading some of the posts in this thread and from chatting with people.

It's not manufactured by the government either.

[padski08]

you could've had them,you were just as entitled to apply for a PS job as anyone else in this country.i could've got a better paid job all those years ago but there was no long term security so i chose to apply for a PS job...

I choose my job and am happy with my choice - i have taken my cuts with out strike, hence why this strike annoys me

Still not heard any argument that will change my mind otherwise. I know of at least 3 people who are in danger of losing their jobs if, as you called for earlier, there is a 3 day all out strike in January!

Business is hard enough for some people without being forced to close your business for 3 days for something that you neither, get any benifit from nor any choice in voting for or against

[RedPaddy]

spot on mate.i bet no one threw in to your face 10 years ago that you had a job for life or that you were guaranteed a pension when you retired?
i'm 13 years in my job and when i took it 1st my mates laughed at me,it was very ironic 10 years later when those same people realised the party was ending and were trying to get a PS job....

+1

while public servants we´re on mediocre money compared to those in private sector, without bonuses & perks, there we´re no complaints....
But, when things turn sour all eye´s are on the public service wages:rolleyes:
What the Goverment SHOULD be doing is focusing on fixing the problems they have created namely - According to CSO, which tracks claims for unemployment and other employment-related government assistance, non-Irish nationals made up 18.5 percent of all persons (80,786 of 435,735) on the Live Register in July 2009. Of those non-Irish nationals, over half were from EU-12 countries.
These people should be moved on to their own countries instead of dossing here receiving the Irish rate of Social welfare.

€15m is been paid in child benefits for children living in other EU countries
This is all perfectly legal, of course -- if you're an EU citizen working in any EU country you are legally entitled to collect child benefits for your child(ren) even if they live back in your home country.

13.9 per cent non-Irish nationals were involved in social welfare fraud last year (compared to 1.7 per cent of Irish nationals),

Irish High Court over asylum cases (60% of judicial reviews in Irish High Court related to asylum or immigration / cost = €21M+).

PLUS the other MAJOR elephant in the room - the amount of money been spent on asylum seekers in the country !
I seen the figure last year of E600Million is spent on housing asylum seekers ! E6 0 0 MILLION !

There´s some savings for you Mr Cowen !:rolleyes:

[Aido82]

Public sector pay talks break down
Friday, 4 December 2009 16:38
The Cabinet has rejected union proposals aimed at securing savings in the public sector pay bill without an across the board pay cut.

The across the board pay cut had been proposed by the Government for next week's Budget.

Tasoieach Brian Cowen said: 'We could not agree to the terms proposed.'

Watch a live conference now


The Government was concerned about the political and public reaction to the issue of unpaid leave.

General Secretary Civil Public and Services Union Blair Horan confirmed to the waiting media that the talks had broken down.

The Irish Congress of Trade Unions has said it was astonished by the Government's decision.

Chief union negotiator Peter McLoone said the talks broke down because the Government could not agree a deal because of the controversy over the unpaid leave proposal.

He said the Government had lost a glorious opportunity to achieve the transformation of the public service that they wanted.

Asked if there would now be more industrial action, Mr McLoone said the unions were meeting now to consider their options.


ICTU General Secretary David Begg said in a statement: 'That this decision was taken following a hostile campaign of opposition to the proposals before they could be either finalised or explained is inexplicable.'

Incoming INTO General Secretary Sheila Nunan said 'a once off opportunity has now been lost'.

Earlier, it had been reported that Government officials and trade unions negotiators were close to reaching an overall agreement on radical change in the public sector including savings of €1.3bn.

The main elements of the plan would have seen changes to work practices, including an 8am-8pm shift roster.

[Juan]

not good news at all:(

[kanemb]

not good news at all:(

Not good news???
The budget next week will not be good for anyone but I don't want unions deciding what it should be.

[Juan]

Not good news???
The budget next week will not be good for anyone but I don't want unions deciding what it should be.

Christ..didnt know that.thanks for keeping me informed.

[bryanod]

If you don't want a paycut, get job losses, its the way in the 'real' world.

[Aido82]

not really mate, alot of people in the real world presume the ps are all well paid, wrong only the big fish are.

thing is this wasnt an issue years ago, only an issue when people are out of work and the media portray the ps as a bunch of jokes

[bryanod]

Never mentioned they are well paid, but they have been more protected to losses/cuts than others, which shouldnt be the way at all.

I always thought it was an issue the amout we waste on PS but nobody cared when everyone/country is making money.

[Aido82]

ok, i agree on the job security and to be honest the PS could be cut by 30% i imagine, some ridiculous jobs out there.

i know for a fact that some people in the PS after the cuts will be better off on the dole.
Wages - pay cut - pension levy - child care - mortgage - car/travel expensies - bills tis a fcukin joke and the bankers and developers are getting off stotch free

[CrazyHorse]

I always thought it was an issue the amout we waste on PS but nobody cared when everyone/country is making money.

All except for the PS...
There was nothing inflated in the PS while the private sector payed and paid themselves what they thought as adequate.

Watched Prime-time a few weeks back, and there was one guy on it, ponsy haircut and one of those stripey shirts with the white collars, ya know the type....
Anyway, when he was asked about what salary he was on now, he said he was on much lower than alot of his friends... when pushed on a ballpark figure, he said it was, and I quote..
"Well under 100grand.."

Yeah... I feel your pain.
:rolleyes:

The point is that the vast majority of PS workers are on a wage that just about gets them by.

The fat cats, such as TD's, the Senate, Judges, etc, etc, are well above the €120k mark p.a.
The Senate should become obselete, half the TD's should be axed (they'll have no probs worming their way in somewhere else), and Judges, who are covered by our constitition in relation to pay cuts, should be seen to be caring for this country FIRST...
Lose the perks, the cars, the drivers, the planes, the pilots, the junketts...

Then and only then will we all accept our fate in this country, Public and private alike.

Our Gov has for too long asked us to do as monkey says, and not as monkey do..

Time to set an example for us all.

[SUPERFAN]

the ball is in the unions' court now,i hope to fcuk they don't take this lying down.we should take those 2 weeks of unpaid leave all in one go in the run up to xmas,bring the country to a fcukin standstill....
them cnuts are going to screw us next week.:mad:

[liamo3]

I'm with the public servants on this, if my job asked me to take another cut I would be livid. See people forget who really is to blame and who are the scapegoats. There are other ways of generating the revenue more fairly and equally. Simple those that can really afford a cut should take a cut. The really well paid that is. Then generate extra revenue on betting smoking etc, if you can afford to gamble drink smoke etc you can afford to pay a little extra. Bottom line is that those who really are living on the breadline with kids and that are being treated harshly

[General]

not really mate, alot of people in the real world presume the ps are all well paid, wrong only the big fish are.

thing is this wasnt an issue years ago, only an issue when people are out of work and the media portray the ps as a bunch of jokes

Problem is there are a hell of a lot of "big fish" in the PS. Hence the average wage in the PS is 50 grand which is too high. Surely a sliding scale of cuts can be devised e.g anyone on less than 30k takes a 2% cut, 30-40k takes 3%, 40-50k takes a 4%cut etc, etc... My wife earns 70k as a physio manager and is happy to take a pay cut if it means her brother, who earns 29k as a hospital porter with a dependant wife and 3 kids, doesn't have to.

At the end of the day, it has to happen, just wish the unions would put more effort into making sure it's fair rather than ridiculous proposals like compulsory unpaid leave...

[4tothefloor]

This country is a joke. The public sector budget is way too high and needs to be cut, drastically. No amount of moaning and striking can change that fact. I feel sorry for the ordinary worker but that's the reality. These clerical staff getting paid well to work flexi-time or departments that are over-staffed with lads arsing around (and boasting about it), that crap has to be cut out.

The minimum wage is also a joke - €8.65 an hour you have to pay a holiday/part-time worker or a green inexperienced kid just out of school? It's a ridiculous benchmark, realistically it should be between €5 and €6 per hour. The pay our politicians, top public servants, bank chiefs and union heads are on is crazy. Commercial rental rates are also fantasy figures, the law is all wrong and this drives up the price of everything in the economy. All needs to be reigned in and reduced. But the unions are as unrealistic as the politicians, and the politicians are as bad as all the others mentioned so I'm not holding my breath...

[elvis]

Surely communism is the way forward,. well judging by some posts here it is anyway,. and it wouldn't be a bad idea, at least until everything settles down a little,. It seems that the people who work hard and honestly get paid buttons, while some suit gets a fortune to holiday in St. Tropez,. whole system is a joke, i dont think theres one thing thats right in this country,. All them bank managers should be shot or jailed at least, they are all thieving *******s,.

[SUPERFAN]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1207/gardai.html

[Aido82]

the only way the gov will see how important the PS is to the country is for an all out strike. As bad as it sounds, see how the country survives with no garda, nurses, teachers, bus drivers, socail welfare officers, county council workers - road, water,esb

i know it would be last resort and would put alot of people out its the only way this gov will listen

[GaryMc]

the only way the gov will see how important the PS is to the country is for an all out strike. As bad as it sounds, see how the country survives with no garda, nurses, teachers, bus drivers, socail welfare officers, county council workers - road, water,esb

i know it would be last resort and would put alot of people out its the only way this gov will listen

Don't see what that will prove. Everyone knows how important nurses, doctors and garda are. No one is diputing that all those groups provide vital services.

The issue is that the country is almost bankrupt and cost cutting measures need to be taken to try and get back to some form of stability. Any private sector company would assess the dead wood and get rid of it, and implement some form of cost cutting measures. Cut down on expenses and implement pay cuts.

The goverment and their departments don't have the balls to make tough decisions. I am not saying they should cut all public sector pay as that is grossly unfair on the majority. They should assess each department and bite the bulet and get rid of postions that don't provide any benefit. There should be a scale of some sort pay reduction. Anyone under 50k is not cut, 50k/75k 5% and 75k/150k should be 10% and anything over that should be 15%.

However Cowen is too big a shite and will screw everyone in case his fat cat buddies will revolt

[elvis]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1207/gardai.html
I think a bit of looting may be in order that day,. :D

Its a crying shame to think, that the gardai who roam the streets and put their life at risk get paid pittence, when the super intendants that sit in an office all day or on the golf course get paid a fortune to do SFA,. A full on strike, is the only way they'll listen, and I mean full on,. All the gardai, ambulance staff, teachers,. fire fighters etc,. And not to have a few on emergency standby,. It seems to be the only way, .the Government are all just money hungry greedy *******s,.

the only way the gov will see how important the PS is to the country is for an all out strike. As bad as it sounds, see how the country survives with no garda, nurses, teachers, bus drivers, socail welfare officers, county council workers - road, water,esb

i know it would be last resort and would put alot of people out its the only way this gov will listen

Exactly!

[elvis]

Don't see what that will prove. Everyone knows how important nurses, doctors and garda are. No one is diputing that all those groups provide vital services.

The issue is that the country is almost bankrupt and cost cutting measures need to be taken to try and get back to some form of stability. Any private sector company would assess the dead wood and get rid of it, and implement some form of cost cutting measures. Cut down on expenses and implement pay cuts.

The goverment and their departments don't have the balls to make tough decisions. I am not saying they should cut all public sector pay as that is grossly unfair on the majority. They should assess each department and bite the bulet and get rid of postions that don't provide any benefit. There should be a scale of some sort pay reduction. Anyone under 50k is not cut, 50k/75k 5% and 75k/150k should be 10% and anything over that should be 15%.

However Cowen is too big a shite and will screw everyone in case his fat cat buddies will revolt

Anyone over that should be shot. How on earth could you justify to earn that amount of money,. The Gardai who catch a murderer or rapist maybe,. but the big wigs that sit in an office and take credit for it,. thats a joke,. Anyone working in the PS should be salary capped to 50k a year,. That'd sort the money problems more than they are trying to do now,.

[Aido82]

However Cowen is too big a shite and will screw everyone in case his fat cat buddies will revolt

Exactly and thats why teh smaller people in the PS should stand up and be heard, im sick and tired of hearing all this sh*** about the PS being on great money, if they are i aint seeing any of it.

Cowen needs to cut his fat wage and his buddies all on over 100K i image prob nearer 200K (dont have proof) but i imagine it is.

Then we also have the tax evaders issues last week, surly they should be rounded up to get revenue back

[elvis]

Exactly and thats why teh smaller people in the PS should stand up and be heard, im sick and tired of hearing all this sh*** about the PS being on great money, if they are i aint seeing any of it.

Cowen needs to cut his fat wage and his buddies all on over 100K i image prob nearer 200K (dont have proof) but i imagine it is.

Then we also have the tax evaders issues last week, surly they should be rounded up to get revenue back

Exactly, them *******s evading tax,. and im on less than 200 euro a week and im being taxed 41%,. Sorry for swearing, i've only done it 3 times in total on this site since i started, and there all in this thread and are *starred out,.
As peter griffin would say, it really grinds my gears,.

[padski08]

Exactly, them *******s evading tax,. and im on less than 200 euro a week and im being taxed 41%,. Sorry for swearing, i've only done it 3 times in total on this site since i started, and there all in this thread and are *starred out,.
As peter griffin would say, it really grinds my gears,.

Surely your entitled to alot of this tax back?

I agree with the point that the cuts should be based on what you earn and not just generalised. Anyone in the PS on over 100g deserves 20-30% cut to start

Everyone knows this country needs the PS but all all out strike, im sorry but im against that. I cant see that helping.

Unfortunatly due to actions by others, we must ALL suffer. Ive taken a cut and so have many others (who still have there job in the private sector)

All i ask is that this cut imposed on public sector is done fairly based on yearly earnings - other than that i cant see any other way that cuts cannot be implemented

[elvis]

Surely your entitled to alot of this tax back?


I should be,. but not for awhile, something to do with p45s and p60s, its being discussed in the paye anytime online thread at the moment.. was looking forward to a lump some for xmas, but wont get anything until at least January now,.


Anyway, im against an all and all out strike, but would anything less make the government listen, and take down the salaries of the 75k+ brigade,.

[windhover]

Anyone working in the PS should be salary capped to 50k a year,..

:rolleyes: many well trained public sector workers deserve salaries >50k

[4tothefloor]

Business is hard enough for some people without being forced to close your business for 3 days for something that you neither, get any benifit from nor any choice in voting for or against
I hope they have a 3 day strike in January. I work in retail and our busiest day of the year so far was their last strike a week or two ago. I'll take 3 days of that thank you very much!

see how the country survives with no garda, nurses, teachers, bus drivers, socail welfare officers, county council workers - road, water,esb
Many would say we've no GardaÃ* most of the time anyway, especially when they're needed the most. Teachers complaining really gets up my nose as they have the life of Riley (My brother is one). I won't even get started on certain departments of the County Council :rolleyes:
I don't think anyone has a problem with nurses being well paid and have no issues either with bus drivers or social welfare officers who have a tough job to say the least. Not all PS workers deserve to be tarred with the same brush but there are definitely areas that need addressing

[windhover]

I. Not all PS workers deserve to be tarred with the same brush but there are definitely areas that need addressing

I agree but coming at the PS x2 in one year is a very poor political move

[stalker]

I think what some Private Sector workers dont quite grasp is that if the Government wins this will give Private Sector employers the impetus and excuse for further pay cuts. There is a reason that IBEC and associated scumbags are calling for cuts(as well as it will be IBEC members that will gain when they sell our Public Services off).

I hope they have a 3 day strike in January. I work in retail and our busiest day of the year so far was their last strike a week or two ago. I'll take 3 days of that thank you very much!

Ha. Funny. Because you do realise that if the Government wins this will mean that 400,000 people in Ireland will be taking a 15% pay cut...I'm sure that will do wonders for retail sector trade, eh?

[Liverpool-law]

if the Government wins


if the Government wins

??? Do you think they are doing this out of spite or something? You do realise that the country is bankrupt? There is no money, it's not about "winning". It's about the country being fcuked...

[stalker]

??? Do you think they are doing this out of spite or something? You do realise that the country is bankrupt? There is no money, it's not about "winning". It's about the country being fcuked...

The problem with the "country is bankrupt" stuff is that the Government found 50+ Billion to give to their banker friends and 0 money for Job creation. The savage attacks on wages in the Public Sector will lead to more people on dole ques through lower spending in retail and service industries which in turn will increase the strain public purse.

If they had tried to any serious extent to tax the rich and create jobs than this would easier to stomach. The fact is they have gone straight to working people and shafted them and are trying to shaft them again and will do so again next year.

[trucker]

Whatever is the outcome of this 1 thing is for sure Fianna Fail will not be voted in Government in the next 30 years of that i'm sure, between the corruption the letting the banks away with murder, the treatment of the public sector, the lack of a health service, and the legacy of Bertie, those lads will be finished.I for 1 am 100% behind the public sector workers and its not just because i'm married to 1, there right for taking a stand if they give in now then next year Cowen will be back for more, what people seem to not realise alot of people in the public sector could have taken jobs on massive money(alot more than 50k a year) in the private sector in the boom years but chose not to, and did'nt get all the bonus and backhanders that went on, they took there salary and were happy serving the public, and now its all gone tits up the general public are beliving the media, notably Independent newspapers vicous campiagn on ordinary people,people who already took a paycut 10 months ago.

[Aido82]

going off topic here but

today northern ireland came out of the recession.

Could this be because of all the irish going across the border in search of cheaper goods/services. I imagine it is one of the reasons.

Maybe if that idiot cowen, reduced the vat rate like the uk did and bring down prices less irish money would be spent in the uk. Because i believe that if more people spent there money down here it would be placing the money back into the country not giving it away, but that stupid ***** isnt doing anything about it. And if he doesnt then im afraid we could be like this for years to come

[stalker]

Sure when everyone is paying 40% tax, working three jobs, no holiday pay, a dole worth 50Euro a week, with privatized two tier health care, when the minimum wage is 4 Euro's an Euro...it'll all be better then.

[RedPaddy]

Whatever is the outcome of this 1 thing is for sure Fianna Fail will not be voted in Government in the next 30 years of that i'm sure, between the corruption the letting the banks away with murder, the treatment of the public sector, the lack of a health service, and the legacy of Bertie, those lads will be finished.I for 1 am 100% behind the public sector workers and its not just because i'm married to 1, there right for taking a stand if they give in now then next year Cowen will be back for more, what people seem to not realise alot of people in the public sector could have taken jobs on massive money(alot more than 50k a year) in the private sector in the boom years but chose not to, and did'nt get all the bonus and backhanders that went on, they took there salary and were happy serving the public, and now its all gone tits up the general public are beliving the media, notably Independent newspapers vicous campiagn on ordinary people,people who already took a paycut 10 months ago.

spot on trucker

I think what some Private Sector workers dont quite grasp is that if the Government wins this will give Private Sector employers the impetus and excuse for further pay cuts. There is a reason that IBEC and associated scumbags are calling for cuts(as well as it will be IBEC members that will gain when they sell our Public Services off).

Ha. Funny. Because you do realise that if the Government wins this will mean that 400,000 people in Ireland will be taking a 15% pay cut...I'm sure that will do wonders for retail sector trade, eh?


& spot on stalker.....give the corrupt bas&%ds an inch & they´ll take a mile !...Shur you need only look at the infamous VRT racked brought in in bad times in the early 90´s yet it still remains to this day!:mad:

I posted this earlier & it just SICKENS me no end that there seems to be no focus on it in the media or by the Government.

What the Goverment SHOULD be doing is focusing on fixing the problems they have created namely - According to CSO, which tracks claims for unemployment and other employment-related government assistance, non-Irish nationals made up 18.5 percent of all persons (80,786 of 435,735) on the Live Register in July 2009. Of those non-Irish nationals, over half were from EU-12 countries.
These people should be moved on to their own countries instead of dossing here receiving the Irish rate of Social welfare.

€15m is been paid in child benefits for children living in other EU countries
This is all perfectly legal, of course -- if you're an EU citizen working in any EU country you are legally entitled to collect child benefits for your child(ren) even if they live back in your home country.

13.9 per cent non-Irish nationals were involved in social welfare fraud last year (compared to 1.7 per cent of Irish nationals),

Irish High Court over asylum cases (60% of judicial reviews in Irish High Court related to asylum or immigration / cost = €21M+).

PLUS the other MAJOR elephant in the room - the amount of money been spent on asylum seekers in the country !
I seen the figure last year of E600Million is spent on housing asylum seekers ! E 6 0 0 MILLION !

There´s some savings for you Mr Cowen ! :rolleyes:

(native Irish taxpayers have been on hospital beds in hallways for the past few years- WHY- because the majoity of financial help asylum seekers get comes from the Health Service Ex. NOTthe social welfare !) FACT !

[4tothefloor]

I think what some Private Sector workers dont quite grasp is that if the Government wins this will give Private Sector employers the impetus and excuse for further pay cuts.
It's not a game, so there's no 'winner'. Public sector pay needs to be cut, and that's it. And it'll need to be cut again next year, and possibly the year after.

Ha. Funny. Because you do realise that if the Government wins this will mean that 400,000 people in Ireland will be taking a 15% pay cut...I'm sure that will do wonders for retail sector trade, eh?
It's just part of the overall picture. With regards retail, three things need to happen. The three being a reduction in VAT, a reduction in Rental law, and a reduction in the minimum wage. The rental law is already decided, Dermot Ahern will announce in February the abolishment in upward only rent reviews after constant lobbying from Retail Excellence Ireland. The second part of that is to attack current leases and force down current rents. REI are currently looking at a possible constitutional challenge regarding this. The case for minimum wage reduction will be greatly enhanced by PS pay cuts. The cost of living has dropped anyway so the minimum wage should also drop. A reduction in VAT is a no brainer but with the government desperate for tax income I doubt this will happen. At best expect a move back to 21% from 21.5% :rolleyes:

Retail cannot get any worse than it is now. Ever wondered why a night out or a shopping spree is much cheaper in the UK? VAT, rents and minimum wage is the answer. Ireland needs a reality check and unfortunately it's now on our door step.

going off topic here but

today northern ireland came out of the recession.

Could this be because of all the irish going across the border in search of cheaper goods/services. I imagine it is one of the reasons.

Maybe if that idiot cowen, reduced the vat rate like the uk did and bring down prices less irish money would be spent in the uk. Because i believe that if more people spent there money down here it would be placing the money back into the country not giving it away, but that stupid ***** isnt doing anything about it. And if he doesnt then im afraid we could be like this for years to come
On Retail Excellence Ireland again, a VAT reduction in line with the UK has been lobbied and lobbied for but to no avail thus far. It's a no brainer as it would increase expenditure but as it is one of the goverments main income streams they seem to be reluctant to budge on it. They'll prob take it back to 21% but you won't see any difference to retail prices with that. There would have to be a 2%+ drop for retail prices to change due to price rounding and the work and cost involved in changing prices for an entire stock inventory.

[stalker]

It's not a game, so there's no 'winner'. Public sector pay needs to be cut, and that's it. And it'll need to be cut again next year, and possibly the year after.


No it isn't a game but there is a very definite winner. And the winner is the rich who have gotten off with their recession leaving ordinary working people to pay to keep them rich. They should be taxed until they bleed.

Wages for the Public Sector don't actually need to be cut. And definitely not at the frontline and moderate income levels - as this will create a class of working poor and in the medium term lead to job losses in Retail/Service Industries.

The solution to the crisis is to start taxing the rich, nationalize the banks and get all those people on the dole into decent jobs by you know actually doing something to stimulate jobs.

The only thing a 15% reducation to Public Sector pay will accomplish is to put Ireland back into the dark ages.

I agree they should decrease VAT.

The governments plan is short term thinking. I think the best example of their poor planning is this: Publicly their plan is to turn Ireland into a High Tech economy. Which requires that young people are able to be sent to Higher Education. But this Budget is going to cut the Grant, possibly lower the minimum wage and destroy the livelihoods of tens upon tens of thousand of Public Servants directly and god knows how many indirectly.

Riddle me this: How can a family struggling with mortgage repayments on a house now worth half of what they spent. Earning a combined sixty grand a year. One of whom is facing 15% pay cut. The others job is in Retail/Service that thrives on disposable income. With expected increases in taxation and cuts and tightening to the university grants scheme...how could they send their Children to University seeing as it will be virtually impossible for their children to get a job?

The plan makes no sense and will ruin this country for decades.

The cost of living has dropped anyway so the minimum wage should also drop.

No it shouldn't

[Liverpool-law]

Who are the "rich" and how many of them do you think are out there? How many times, you can tax people earning over 70,000 as much as you want, THERE ISN'T ENOUGH OF THEM TO BRING IN THE NECESSARY TAX INCOME. It is simple maths, it's all very well being angry with the situation but take your head out of your arse with "tax the rich" stupid comments that don't add up and won't solve the problem. Everyone has to take a hit, the wealthy should take more of a hit but EVERYONE has to take a hit because there is no money. We've been pointing fingers all year and done nothing to get out of the hole we're in. And one other thing, who do you think the "rich" are? What do they do, what function do they have in ireland today? By and large they are EMPLOYERS who worked their asses off to get where they are, giving several other people jobs and income in a lot of cases (and they are high tax payers already). If you over-tax high earners, you get more unemployment, black economy and emigration of the skilled workforce. I am sick to death of people rolling around bitching feeling sorry for themselves and pointing the finger. We'll all have to take our fcuking medicine, unless someone comes up with a VIABLE solution, this negative attitude will solve nothing.

[RastaRed]

I should be,. but not for awhile, something to do with p45s and p60s, its being discussed in the paye anytime online thread at the moment.. was looking forward to a lump some for xmas, but wont get anything until at least January now,.


Anyway, im against an all and all out strike, but would anything less make the government listen, and take down the salaries of the 75k+ brigade,.

Elvis, I used to work in Revenue and still know all the heads still working there, PM me

[Aido82]

i blame bono :mad:

[rev]

i blame bono :mad:

I blame the greed of the Irish Population during the 'celtic tiger'

[4tothefloor]

Who are the "rich" and how many of them do you think are out there? How many times, you can tax people earning over 70,000 as much as you want, THERE ISN'T ENOUGH OF THEM TO BRING IN THE NECESSARY TAX INCOME. It is simple maths, it's all very well being angry with the situation but take your head out of your arse with "tax the rich" stupid comments that don't add up and won't solve the problem. Everyone has to take a hit, the wealthy should take more of a hit but EVERYONE has to take a hit because there is no money. We've been pointing fingers all year and done nothing to get out of the hole we're in. And one other thing, who do you think the "rich" are? What do they do, what function do they have in ireland today? By and large they are EMPLOYERS who worked their asses off to get where they are, giving several other people jobs and income in a lot of cases (and they are high tax payers already). If you over-tax high earners, you get more unemployment, black economy and emigration of the skilled workforce. I am sick to death of people rolling around bitching feeling sorry for themselves and pointing the finger. We'll all have to take our fcuking medicine, unless someone comes up with a VIABLE solution, this negative attitude will solve nothing.
+1, excellent post. 'Tax the rich' is layman's economics, easy to trot out but actually makes no sense. The logic being the harder you work and achieve, the more we'll penalise you. Why don't we just abolish the private sector altogether, abolish entrepreneurship and we'll all take cosy Public Sector jobs and strike whenever we don't like something.......some people need to seriously wake up in this country.

'Tax the Rich' to me is taxing highly paid executives or people who have amassed huge personal fortunes. It should not mean taxing entrepreneur's who have earned their crust and crucially who provide employment (and are already paying high taxes through their business), that would be economic suicide. As you quite rightly said, there are not enough highly paid executives in this country for this to have a big financial impact and most who have amassed personal fortunes are tax exiles - something that would increase ten-fold if a 'tax the rich' policy was adopted. I agree that those earning big salaries should pay a slightly higher rate of tax, but I do not a agree that they should pay considerably more tax. Everyone has to take a hit.

No it shouldn't
Tell that to employer's in the retail/hospitality sectors, who are not taking new workers on and thus not creating employment because IT IS TOO EXPENSIVE. Why do you think the government have just announced a wage subsidy bursary for the retail sector? They're giving a €9000 subsidy to business's just to keep one employee in employment for 35 hrs per week, and €6,300 to keep an employee in employment for 21 hrs per week, for a period of 12 months. Never mind taking new workers on, they're subsidising wages just to keep workers already employed in employment! You see, the problem with PS workers is that they want their cake and eat it. As an employer in retail and a member of two national bodies, I can assure you that the minimum wage MUST come down. This country does not have the economy, population or growth to sustain the current minimum wage. Plus it makes us completely uncompetitive in all facets of the economy, but that's just a minor detail in the grand scheme of things.... ;)

[gowinit6times]

I would agree, the minimum wage of €8.65 has to come down and the public in general need to re-adjust their expected levels of Income from mid-2008 by a reduced amount of about 25%. I live in a border region and know that the minimum wage in the north is €6.44 for over 22's and €5.36 for 18-21 year olds. Combine that with a 6.5% lower Vat rate, the lower rents, lower administration costs in general and its easy to see why businesses in Ireland are so uncompetitive at present.

The high minimum wage is the biggest elephant in the room. Any cuts to the minimum wage would have to be accompanied by a corresponding cut in welfare.

[windhover]

Tell that to employer's in the retail/hospitality sectors, who are not taking new workers on and thus not creating employment because IT IS TOO EXPENSIVE. Why do you think the government have just announced a wage subsidy bursary for the retail sector? They're giving a €9000 subsidy to business's just to keep one employee in employment for 35 hrs per week, and €6,300 to keep an employee in employment for 21 hrs per week, for a period of 12 months. Never mind taking new workers on, they're subsidising wages just to keep workers already employed in employment! You see, the problem with PS workers is that they want their cake and eat it. As an employer in retail and a member of two national bodies, I can assure you that the minimum wage MUST come down. This country does not have the economy, population or growth to sustain the current minimum wage. Plus it makes us completely uncompetitive in all facets of the economy, but that's just a minor detail in the grand scheme of things.... ;)



why dont you talk to people on the min wage and see how hard it is to get by? BTW cut Prsi if you want to reduce cost of employment. There are many out there that would love to use the current situation as a stick to beat workers with!

I am an employer but trying to look at both sides here and how hard a time some people are going through. It seems to me as if your arse is firmly planted on one side of the fence!

Also the 'laymans' economics may have served us better than the shower of 'pros' who drove us head first into this mess.

You need to be more understanding of the suffering and frustration that is out there!

[stalker]

Who are the "rich" and how many of them do you think are out there? How many times, you can tax people earning over 70,000 as much as you want, THERE ISN'T ENOUGH OF THEM TO BRING IN THE NECESSARY TAX INCOME. It is simple maths, it's all very well being angry with the situation but take your head out of your arse with "tax the rich" stupid comments that don't add up and won't solve the problem. Everyone has to take a hit, the wealthy should take more of a hit but EVERYONE has to take a hit because there is no money. We've been pointing fingers all year and done nothing to get out of the hole we're in. And one other thing, who do you think the "rich" are? What do they do, what function do they have in ireland today? By and large they are EMPLOYERS who worked their asses off to get where they are, giving several other people jobs and income in a lot of cases (and they are high tax payers already). If you over-tax high earners, you get more unemployment, black economy and emigration of the skilled workforce. I am sick to death of people rolling around bitching feeling sorry for themselves and pointing the finger. We'll all have to take our fcuking medicine, unless someone comes up with a VIABLE solution, this negative attitude will solve nothing.

Even if I accept that you can't just 'tax the rich' to solve the problem, which again wasn't my only solution as you conveniently ignore Bank Nationalization and Job Creation as progressive solutions to the shortfall. It was a part of an overall alternative to the blanket ****ing over of working class people which is the governments solution.

It is simply a nonsense to say that the there is some parity in how the rich and the working people are being dealt with by the Government. Workers are being disproportionately hurt by these cuts. If we all have to take cuts, why cant those most able to afford it pay the most? Why aren't they paying anything significant at all?

More than just high earners the super rich who milked the Celtic Tiger bollocks dry were giving so much tax loopholes, grants and an stupidly low corporation tax to begin with that Ireland was running effectively as a Tax Haven. For example: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1202/revenue.html These people should be retrospectively taxed at the normal rates.

As you quite rightly said, there are not enough highly paid executives in this country for this to have a big financial impact and most who have amassed personal fortunes are tax exiles - something that would increase ten-fold if a 'tax the rich' policy was adopted. I agree that those earning big salaries should pay a slightly higher rate of tax, but I do not a agree that they should pay considerably more tax. Everyone has to take a hit.

This is an interesting argument brought up quite a lot. So the reason we can't possibly Tax'em is that they'll simply avoid paying it? ...You can see the obvious flaw in this argument?

'Tax the rich' is layman's economics, easy to trot out but actually makes no sense. The logic being the harder you work and achieve, the more we'll penalise you. Why don't we just abolish the private sector altogether, abolish entrepreneurship and we'll all take cosy Public Sector jobs and strike whenever we don't like something.......some people need to seriously wake up in this country.

lol And where did your expert professional economics get the world economy? Eh? The economics of greed, low taxes, low wages and destroying labor unions? It got this country(and all countries) into this aweful mess and your answer is more of the same please? Get over yourself.

High Earning and Wealth usually have very little actual correlation with "hard work" and its fairly disgusting for you to insinuate that given what actually caused this crisis. Super rich people working easy private sector jobs, manipulating a system they didn't understand for the sole purpose of ****ing everyone over to make them rich. Thats the sum total of your professional economics that ruined this country. So take your arrogance elsewhere. (A long but good story about the banking crisis: http://www.portfolio.com/news-markets/national-news/portfolio/2008/11/11/The-End-of-Wall-Streets-Boom/?print=true)

And you can create all the strawmen arguments you like it wont make the content of what your saying any stronger. Did I anywhere say we should abolish the Private Sector? No. So drop the argumentation fallacies.

why dont you talk to people on the min wage and see how hard it is to get by? BTW cut Prsi if you want to reduce cost of employment. There are many out there that would love to use the current situation as a stick to beat workers with!

Exactly.

[gowinit6times]

More than just high earners the super rich who milked the Celtic Tiger bollocks dry were giving so much tax loopholes, grants and an stupidly low corporation tax to begin with that Ireland was running effectively as a Tax Haven. For example: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1202/revenue.html These people should be retrospectively taxed at the normal rates.
Exactly.

Thats just not correct at all, in fact the opposite is the case. The single biggest attraction for many US based companies is the low corporation tax rate. In fact it is estimated that 90% of Corporation Tax receipts collected by the revenue commissioners can be sourced to overseas companies. the low CT rate is one of the few competitive advantages we have left over other EU nations.

Thats not to mention the knock on effect of increased VAT receipts, job creation etc. from this foreign investment.

One of the Tories pledges if they are elected in the next UK election is to reduce the rate of CT in line with that in Ireland.


Its amazing how individuals within the banking sector have escaped relatively unscathed from the mess that has been created. I see today where the ex-chief executive of Anglo David Drumm has counter sued the bank for €2.6 million in lost bonuses and salary. An absolute scandal.

[bobby benitez]

why dont you talk to people on the min wage and see how hard it is to get by? BTW cut Prsi if you want to reduce cost of employment. There are many out there that would love to use the current situation as a stick to beat workers with!

I am an employer but trying to look at both sides here and how hard a time some people are going through. It seems to me as if your arse is firmly planted on one side of the fence!

Also the 'laymans' economics may have served us better than the shower of 'pros' who drove us head first into this mess.

You need to be more understanding of the suffering and frustration that is out there!

Totally agree with this. Greed is eating away at our country and punishing the most vunerable in society is not the way forward. A simple reduction of €2.00 p/h would save an employer around €80.00 per week, now who is going to feel that extra €80.00 more, the employer or the employee already struggling to get by?

Some suggestions I'd have for tomorrow would be -
1) Cut all sports grants ( GAA,IRFU,FAI and IOC) they should be self sufficient.
2) Tax bonuses to fu*k, short term thinking is what got us into our current mess
3) Tax the Catholic Church on their Sunday takings. Richest organisation in the country and they are ripping the piss out of the entire country.
4) Scrap road tax, added in at the pump. Brings in immediate revenue, improves cash flow for individuals and business, cuts out the need for a lot of unnecessary work in the motor taxation offices plus unnecessary Garda work.
5) Introduce a reducing dole, ie deduct a certain percentage each year for those on the dole, I feel its unfair on the newly unemployed to be punished while those who never bother their the hole when there was work to get any.
6) Sort out rent allowance - they could use Nama to purchase thousands of homes and house single mothers etc, charge them €300 or €400 p/m, rather than paying some landlord €800 p/m of tax payers money.
7) Tax the horse racing and betting shops
8) Start the ball rolling on reducing number in the P/S, like every organisation I'm sure they have plenty of wasters we could do without, its about time we found the balls to get rid of them.
9) Half the amount of TD's we have, then maybe only the good ones would get elected.:
10) Reduce VAT.

[stalker]

One of the Tories pledges if they are elected in the next UK election is to reduce the rate of CT in line with that in Ireland.


So it has come to this. An Irishman and a Liverpool fan trumpeting the pledges of the British Conservative Party.

Sad days.

[elvis]

Totally agree with this. Greed is eating away at our country and punishing the most vunerable in society is not the way forward. A simple reduction of €2.00 p/h would save an employer around €80.00 per week, now who is going to feel that extra €80.00 more, the employer or the employee already struggling to get by?

Some suggestions I'd have for tomorrow would be -
1) Cut all sports grants ( GAA,IRFU,FAI and IOC) they should be self sufficient.
2) Tax bonuses to fu*k, short term thinking is what got us into our current mess
3) Tax the Catholic Church on their Sunday takings. Richest organisation in the country and they are ripping the piss out of the entire country.
4) Scrap road tax, added in at the pump. Brings in immediate revenue, improves cash flow for individuals and business, cuts out the need for a lot of unnecessary work in the motor taxation offices plus unnecessary Garda work.
5) Introduce a reducing dole, ie deduct a certain percentage each year for those on the dole, I feel its unfair on the newly unemployed to be punished while those who never bother their the hole when there was work to get any.
6) Sort out rent allowance - they could use Nama to purchase thousands of homes and house single mothers etc, charge them €300 or €400 p/m, rather than paying some landlord €800 p/m of tax payers money.
7) Tax the horse racing and betting shops
8) Start the ball rolling on reducing number in the P/S, like every organisation I'm sure they have plenty of wasters we could do without, its about time we found the balls to get rid of them.
9) Half the amount of TD's we have, then maybe only the good ones would get elected.:
10) Reduce VAT.

I agree with all those points,. But i cant see any of them happening,.
Another thing they should do, is means test the college grants and fees,. As there are some people who really dont need them or derserve them,.
For example I know someone in UCD who is doing Arts, he has 6 hours a week, gets roughly 6,500 euro grant for the year,. and gets his fees paid for and books etc, on top of that,. and he doesn't need it,. but 2 hours of his week go on a class on The American Civil War, and thats all the lecturer teaches,.
Of what benefit is that to anyone let alone the country, and why should the government pay for him to learn about something that any yank could probably tell him more about,. Some things in colleges/univerities in this country is pathetic and disgusting, and even more disgraceful that they try to justify it,.

[stalker]

I agree with all those points,. But i cant see any of them happening,.
Another thing they should do, is means test the college grants and fees,. As there are some people who really dont need them or derserve them,.
For example I know someone in UCD who is doing Arts, he has 6 hours a week, gets roughly 6,500 euro grant for the year,. and gets his fees paid for and books etc, on top of that,. and he doesn't need it,. but 2 hours of his week go on a class on The American Civil War, and thats all the lecturer teaches,.
Of what benefit is that to anyone let alone the country, and why should the government pay for him to learn about something that any yank could probably tell him more about,. Some things in colleges/univerities in this country is pathetic and disgusting, and even more disgraceful that they try to justify it,.

This is silly. Your friend is doing a degree in History presumably. Possible jobs out of this include Teaching, Journalism, Archeology and whats more doing such a course develops the ability for self learning, research and writing skills all of which are important in many workplaces.

The benefit to the country is that your friend will be able to take up the jobs listed and add to the intellectual well being of the country with the skills therein developed.

There is a certain amount of rationalization possible within the Grant system. But if Ireland really wants to be a modern High Tech economy and not a basket case third world economy the Grant system needs to be extended so more people can attain Degrees and Masters in diverse fields of academics, science and engineering.

[elvis]

This is silly. Your friend is doing a degree in History presumably. Possible jobs out of this include Teaching, Journalism, Archeology and whats more doing such a course develops the ability for self learning, research and writing skills all of which are important in many workplaces.

The benefit to the country is that your friend will be able to take up the jobs listed and add to the intellectual well being of the country with the skills therein developed.

There is a certain amount of rationalization possible within the Grant system. But if Ireland really wants to be a modern High Tech economy and not a basket case third world economy the Grant system needs to be extended so more people can attain Degrees and Masters in diverse fields of academics, science and engineering.

He doesn't go to class, and he has no interest in being a teacher or journalist, and definitely not an archaeologist,. He wants to do a photography course when he's finished this one, and leech of the government and daddy,. he also isn't a friend of mine,. more of an associate of one of my friends,.

[stalker]

He doesn't go to class, and he has no interest in being a teacher or journalist, and definitely not an archaeologist,. He wants to do a photography course when he's finished this one, and leech of the government and daddy,. he also isn't a friend of mine,. more of an associate of one of my friends,.

So what your associate wants to do is get two different qualifications, Arts(history?) and Photography? Whats wrong with that?

I dont know enough about the man or circumstance. But it is becoming increasingly necessary for Uni students to leech off the state and Daddy since it is impossible these days to get a decent job to pay your own way.

As I said, do we want a modern economy or a basket case? People have to be afforded the opportunity to go to university. What they then make of it is their own business.

[elvis]

So what your associate wants to do is get two different qualifications, Arts(history?) and Photography? Whats wrong with that?

I dont know enough about the man or circumstance. But it is becoming increasingly necessary for Uni students to leech off the state and Daddy since it is impossible these days to get a decent job to pay your own way.

As I said, do we want a modern economy or a basket case? People have to be afforded the opportunity to go to university. What they then make of it is their own business.

I agree with what your saying,. but this person, just doesn't want a job,. so 2 degrees or 7 degrees wont matter to him, its just to keep his daddy happy, he gets his apartment in dublin, his allowence, his grant, and doesn't go to college,. also didn't bother to attend his exams today or yesterday,. IM all for people who are interested and who will try, and who want to achieve things, to receive grants and have their fees paid for,.

I think i've dragged this topic of course slightly, my apologies,.

[stalker]

I agree with what your saying,. but this person, just doesn't want a job,. so 2 degrees or 7 degrees wont matter to him, its just to keep his daddy happy, he gets his apartment in dublin, his allowence, his grant, and doesn't go to college,. also didn't bother to attend his exams today or yesterday,. IM all for people who are interested and who will try, and who want to achieve things, to receive grants and have their fees paid for,.

I think i've dragged this topic of course slightly, my apologies,.

Surely if he doesn't attend his exams he will fail? And if you fail you have to pay full fees(which can cost you upwards of 4,000) to repeat.

[elvis]

Surely if he doesn't attend his exams he will fail? And if you fail you have to pay full fees(which can cost you upwards of 4,000) to repeat.

unless he passes the repeats in August, or does excellent in his summer exams,.
Hopefully he does fail and make his daddy fork out the cash for it,. might give him a kick up the backside to get his act together,.

[trucker]

Totally agree with this. Greed is eating away at our country and punishing the most vunerable in society is not the way forward. A simple reduction of €2.00 p/h would save an employer around €80.00 per week, now who is going to feel that extra €80.00 more, the employer or the employee already struggling to get by?

Some suggestions I'd have for tomorrow would be -
1) Cut all sports grants ( GAA,IRFU,FAI and IOC) they should be self sufficient.
2) Tax bonuses to fu*k, short term thinking is what got us into our current mess
3) Tax the Catholic Church on their Sunday takings. Richest organisation in the country and they are ripping the piss out of the entire country.
4) Scrap road tax, added in at the pump. Brings in immediate revenue, improves cash flow for individuals and business, cuts out the need for a lot of unnecessary work in the motor taxation offices plus unnecessary Garda work.
5) Introduce a reducing dole, ie deduct a certain percentage each year for those on the dole, I feel its unfair on the newly unemployed to be punished while those who never bother their the hole when there was work to get any.
6) Sort out rent allowance - they could use Nama to purchase thousands of homes and house single mothers etc, charge them €300 or €400 p/m, rather than paying some landlord €800 p/m of tax payers money.
7) Tax the horse racing and betting shops
8) Start the ball rolling on reducing number in the P/S, like every organisation I'm sure they have plenty of wasters we could do without, its about time we found the balls to get rid of them.
9) Half the amount of TD's we have, then maybe only the good ones would get elected.:
10) Reduce VAT.

Brilliant post there mate, agree with it all, although the church thing would be difficult.

[WexRed]

Some suggestions I'd have for tomorrow would be -
1) Cut all sports grants ( GAA,IRFU,FAI and IOC) they should be self sufficient.
2) Tax bonuses to fu*k, short term thinking is what got us into our current mess
3) Tax the Catholic Church on their Sunday takings. Richest organisation in the country and they are ripping the piss out of the entire country.
4) Scrap road tax, added in at the pump. Brings in immediate revenue, improves cash flow for individuals and business, cuts out the need for a lot of unnecessary work in the motor taxation offices plus unnecessary Garda work.
5) Introduce a reducing dole, ie deduct a certain percentage each year for those on the dole, I feel its unfair on the newly unemployed to be punished while those who never bother their the hole when there was work to get any.
6) Sort out rent allowance - they could use Nama to purchase thousands of homes and house single mothers etc, charge them €300 or €400 p/m, rather than paying some landlord €800 p/m of tax payers money.
7) Tax the horse racing and betting shops
8) Start the ball rolling on reducing number in the P/S, like every organisation I'm sure they have plenty of wasters we could do without, its about time we found the balls to get rid of them.
9) Half the amount of TD's we have, then maybe only the good ones would get elected.:
10) Reduce VAT.

Some good points but
(1) Despite some fcked up internal politics there's a lot to be said for these organisations on the ground especially with more out of work. These can be many man's social outlet and sanitiser in an otherwise very negative environment and against the ultimate mental evil of unemployment. They're certainly more constructive than the pub or bookies. I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water though their use of the funds could be looked at in terms of it reaching the grass roots. AFAIK a lot of this comes from the Lotto. Saying that I'd have been long in favour of rebalancing some of the funding towards the Arts which in good and bad times seems to be sadly neglected.

(2) Agreed (especially in the light of bonuses STILL paid out after the sh1t hit the fan and in organisations that caused the sh1t) but accountant's minds would boggle with the possibilities they have at their disposal to legally get around this one.

(3) And presumably the same for other religions ? A hot potato that nobody would tackle.

(4) Road tax is graded. The pump is indiscriminate. It would only result in johnny punto driver getting screwed yet again in paying the same effective road tax as the Merc/BMW fat cat........most likely a banker. The irony.

(5) Yes, yes, yes. Best point of the lot and easily implemented. Just like two civil servants shouldn't be treated the same when there can be a zero extra or less in their pay. Someone who may have worked all their adult life shouldn't be treated the same as a longterm career scrounger (with all due respect to those who can't work for one valid reason or another).

(6) Actually scratch Number 5, this is the best point of the lot. Its ingenuis in fact.

(7) Sorry thats the way it used to be and was scrapped for good reason. The difference now, compared to back then is that far more have cheaper and faster internet access on a myriad of devices at home and at the racecourse. All this would do is affect another industry adversely as people move to bet online with zero tax. At least there's whatever other taxes and employment generated by these at the moment. This would be a shooting in the foot move.

(8) Agree but its very hard in practice. I suppose should make a start anyway. Those inside realise the size of that task. It all comes down to the unions really. I don't know if their priority is to retain jobs or to retain the standard of those who retain jobs. Its a straight either/or decision that they've never had to face before. Do they let wasters (but still union members) get cut for the benefit of those remaining or go for the headcount retention. I always thought, while paying lip service to reform, they'd be innately too slow to change the habit of a lifetime and wouldn't bring anything workable and immediate enough to the table. So it seems. They need to change their mindset very quickly to avoid more of the same as the government aren't very imaginative or come up with one positive approach in any of their policies so far (e.g. cutting vat instead of raising it / dropping VRT altogether, which must be down anyway, to stimulate the motor industry).

(9) Maybe but is there enough good ones to half fill the Dail ! There's probably going to be a few new factions popping up by the next election anyway and I wouldn't be surprised if pro-public service and pro-pensioner groups are among them. Times like these can effect big changes in the political, industrial and social landscape. Thats mainly because nobody is indifferent to it or 'not bovered' with 'boring' politics and see how it effects their lives directly. The establishment depends on that indifference so that those that are bovered can get on with controlling the rest.

(10) Seems to have worked for the UK. One of the most shortsighted moves here raising it after the earliest and most scandalous cut of them all dropping the highly effective cervical vaccine for teenage girls, now that cut will directly cause deaths to save 10m.

[rev]

6) Sort out rent allowance - they could use Nama to purchase thousands of homes and house single mothers etc, charge them €300 or €400 p/m, rather than paying some landlord €800 p/m of tax payers money.

[QUOTE=WexRed;271285]
(6) Actually scratch Number 5, this is the best point of the lot. Its ingenuis in fact.

Great idea lads - but if someone is entitled to rent allowance,how could they afford €400 pm?? Is the whole point of it not helping people who can't afford such sums? :confused:

[WexRed]

On point (8) and I digress majorly here but fck it

I would start by halving the mileage rate and cutting a third off the hotel expense rate which would have zero effect on the frontliners but very quickly stop the blatant abuse of the system from within in the rules which gets worse as you go up the line. I've seen it and I'm not saying someone should have to pay to do their job but for example if you were to go from Wexford to Dublin for one day you could put in for expenses of around 350 (150 hotel plus mileage). Not much more than 120 would be a more accurate figure. Its the definition of a nice little earner. I've seen purchase decsions of 30 quid on a whiteboard or 300 quid for 50/250 on a printer go in the obvious direction that you would never make with your own money.

Benchmarking was a missed opportunity to introduce performance related pay but since the horse has bolted unravelling that is difficult. How many times have you seen politicians expenses being more than their wages ? Its the same for all the upper echelons of the civil service throughout. Slashing that wastage directly would bring a lot of savings and not effect those that are only guilty of turning up and doing their job (right not all of them but since they're never rated on performance how can you systematically identify the wasters let alone get shot of them. Its impossible in the short term).

I cannot understand the P/S being represented as one big blob. Its clearly not and has its own internal haves and have nots. But it suits the former to use the doctors, nurses, teachers, frontline services argument to save their own fat useless arses. Its suits the government to play the private off against the public but there's too many 'mixed couples' or people that know public servants that aren't rolling in it or screwing the system to swallow that whole. Its not like public servants deny there's wasters and abusers and see plenty of room improvement or savings anyway. Not on the ground anyway. Its the big wigs that can't see the obvious or unions that won't face up to the fact.

Its true that the majority of the P/S, in my experience, don't really appreciate the other side of the fence either or their own perks but thats always been the case unless you've been on both sides. The grass is always greener on the other side.

[WexRed]

[QUOTE=bobby benitez;271156]
6) Sort out rent allowance - they could use Nama to purchase thousands of homes and house single mothers etc, charge them €300 or €400 p/m, rather than paying some landlord €800 p/m of tax payers money.

Great idea lads - but if someone is entitled to rent allowance,how could they afford €400 pm?? Is the whole point of it not helping people who can't afford such sums? :confused:

If they're getting 100% of their rent they can't. Currently they couldn't afford the 800 either. That goes from tax money to private landlords. This way you could see it as a neutral transaction (NAMA was going to take ownership of these houses anyway). Wether the landlord payout is effectively 'transferred' to NAMA or not paid out at all. Its all tax payers money at the end of the day.

I think original point is based on the assumption that some rent is paid and the rest is paid by the state. All goes to a private landlord. Under a NAMA owned house NAMA would recieve the same rent from the tenant and the rest would not have to be paid out from tax as it was before.

[RedPaddy]

:rolleyes:Totally agree with this. Greed is eating away at our country and punishing the most vunerable in society is not the way forward. A simple reduction of €2.00 p/h would save an employer around €80.00 per week, now who is going to feel that extra €80.00 more, the employer or the employee already struggling to get by?

Some suggestions I'd have for tomorrow would be -
1) Cut all sports grants ( GAA,IRFU,FAI and IOC) they should be self sufficient.
2)
3) Tax the Catholic Church on their Sunday takings. Richest organisation in the country and they are ripping the piss out of the entire country. -dont agree on this
4) Scrap road tax, added in at the pump. Brings in immediate revenue, improves cash flow for individuals and business, cuts out the need for a lot of unnecessary work in the motor taxation offices plus unnecessary Garda work.
5) Introduce a reducing dole, ie deduct a certain percentage each year for those on the dole, I feel its unfair on the newly unemployed to be punished it would be!while those who never bother their the hole when there was work to get any.
6) Sort out rent allowance - they could use Nama to purchase thousands of homes and house single mothers etc, charge them €300 or €400 p/m, rather than paying some landlord €800 p/m of tax payers money.
7) Tax the horse racing and betting shops
8)
9) Half the amount of TD's we have, then maybe only the good ones would get elected.:
10) Reduce VAT.

add these to it! I posted this earlier & it just SICKENS me no end that there seems to be no focus on it in the media or by the Government.

What the Goverment SHOULD be doing is focusing on fixing the problems they have created namely - According to CSO, which tracks claims for unemployment and other employment-related government assistance, non-Irish nationals made up 18.5 percent of all persons (80,786 of 435,735) on the Live Register in July 2009. Of those non-Irish nationals, over half were from EU-12 countries.
These people should be moved on to their own countries after a certain length of time, instead of dossing here receiving the Irish rate of Social welfare.

€15m is been paid in child benefits for children living in other EU countries
This is all perfectly legal, of course -- if you're an EU citizen working in any EU country you are legally entitled to collect child benefits for your child(ren) even if they live back in your home country.

13.9 per cent non-Irish nationals were involved in social welfare fraud last year (compared to 1.7 per cent of Irish nationals),

Irish High Court over asylum cases (60% of judicial reviews in Irish High Court related to asylum or immigration / cost = €21M+).

PLUS the other MAJOR elephant in the room - the amount of money been spent on asylum seekers in the country !
I seen the figure last year of [B]E600Million is spent on housing asylum seekers ! E 6 0 0 MILLION ! thats almost half the savings theyre looking for in the public service !

(native Irish taxpayers have been on hospital beds in hallways for the past few years- WHY- because the majoity of financial help asylum seekers get comes from the Health Service Ex. NOTthe social welfare !) FACT !

There´s some savings for you Mr Cowen !

[bobby benitez]

=WexRed;271285]Some good points but
(1) Despite some fcked up internal politics there's a lot to be said for these organisations on the ground especially with more out of work. These can be many man's social outlet and sanitiser in an otherwise very negative environment and against the ultimate mental evil of unemployment. They're certainly more constructive than the pub or bookies. I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water though their use of the funds could be looked at in terms of it reaching the grass roots. AFAIK a lot of this comes from the Lotto. Saying that I'd have been long in favour of rebalancing some of the funding towards the Arts which in good and bad times seems to be sadly neglected.Thats a fair point but do we need to pay for Lansdowne Rd? Would Mr Delaney have offered a refund if we had of Quailified for SA?

(2) Agreed (especially in the light of bonuses STILL paid out after the sh1t hit the fan and in organisations that caused the sh1t) but accountant's minds would boggle with the possibilities they have at their disposal to legally get around this one. Again quite correct, but bankers now have a set limit so anything above it tax @ 90%

(3) And presumably the same for other religions ? A hot potato that nobody would tackle.Most of my points are hot potatoes, but its grow some balls time. I would tax other religions just to be fair ;)

(4) Road tax is graded. The pump is indiscriminate. It would only result in johnny punto driver getting screwed yet again in paying the same effective road tax as the Merc/BMW fat cat........most likely a banker. The irony.Disagree here, a punto would go through half the petrol a Merc would

(5) Yes, yes, yes. Best point of the lot and easily implemented. Just like two civil servants shouldn't be treated the same when there can be a zero extra or less in their pay. Someone who may have worked all their adult life shouldn't be treated the same as a longterm career scrounger (with all due respect to those who can't work for one valid reason or another).Thanks ;)

(6) Actually scratch Number 5, this is the best point of the lot. Its ingenuis in fact.Thanks again ;)

(7) Sorry thats the way it used to be and was scrapped for good reason. The difference now, compared to back then is that far more have cheaper and faster internet access on a myriad of devices at home and at the racecourse. All this would do is affect another industry adversely as people move to bet online with zero tax. At least there's whatever other taxes and employment generated by these at the moment. This would be a shooting in the foot move.Fair enough but what about the race industry that pays slich so it keeps people in employment, again back to self sufficent time

(8) Agree but its very hard in practice. I suppose should make a start anyway. Those inside realise the size of that task. It all comes down to the unions really. I don't know if their priority is to retain jobs or to retain the standard of those who retain jobs. Its a straight either/or decision that they've never had to face before. Do they let wasters (but still union members) get cut for the benefit of those remaining or go for the headcount retention. I always thought, while paying lip service to reform, they'd be innately too slow to change the habit of a lifetime and wouldn't bring anything workable and immediate enough to the table. So it seems. They need to change their mindset very quickly to avoid more of the same as the government aren't very imaginative or come up with one positive approach in any of their policies so far (e.g. cutting vat instead of raising it / dropping VRT altogether, which must be down anyway, to stimulate the motor industry).Agree its difficult but something needs to be done now

(9) Maybe but is there enough good ones to half fill the Dail ! There's probably going to be a few new factions popping up by the next election anyway and I wouldn't be surprised if pro-public service and pro-pensioner groups are among them. Times like these can effect big changes in the political, industrial and social landscape. Thats mainly because nobody is indifferent to it or 'not bovered' with 'boring' politics and see how it effects their lives directly. The establishment depends on that indifference so that those that are bovered can get on with controlling the rest.I seen 2 Healy Rays on the news today, enough said

(10) Seems to have worked for the UK. One of the most shortsighted moves here raising it after the earliest and most scandalous cut of them all dropping the highly effective cervical vaccine for teenage girls, now that cut will directly cause deaths to save 10m.[/QUOTE]

[4tothefloor]

Totally agree with this. Greed is eating away at our country and punishing the most vunerable in society is not the way forward. A simple reduction of €2.00 p/h would save an employer around €80.00 per week, now who is going to feel that extra €80.00 more, the employer or the employee already struggling to get by?
A reduction on what? A reduction in the minimum wage would be for new employment and taking new employees on, not cutting the wages of current employees :rolleyes:
But to take your example, in the current climate the employer would feel it just as much as the employee. Business is horrendous at the moment. I know of business owners who have gone days without making a single sale. The same could be said for putting an employee on short time and say halving his/her wage but it's a necessary step some businesses have to take, even though the saving may appear 'minimal'. Businesses have cut their trading hours, their staff and also the working hours of remaining staff. If the minimum wage and PRSI was not so high some of this could be avoided.

Some suggestions I'd have for tomorrow would be -
1) Cut all sports grants ( GAA,IRFU,FAI and IOC) they should be self sufficient.
2) Tax bonuses to fu*k, short term thinking is what got us into our current mess
3) Tax the Catholic Church on their Sunday takings. Richest organisation in the country and they are ripping the piss out of the entire country.
4) Scrap road tax, added in at the pump. Brings in immediate revenue, improves cash flow for individuals and business, cuts out the need for a lot of unnecessary work in the motor taxation offices plus unnecessary Garda work.
5) Introduce a reducing dole, ie deduct a certain percentage each year for those on the dole, I feel its unfair on the newly unemployed to be punished while those who never bother their the hole when there was work to get any.
6) Sort out rent allowance - they could use Nama to purchase thousands of homes and house single mothers etc, charge them €300 or €400 p/m, rather than paying some landlord €800 p/m of tax payers money.
7) Tax the horse racing and betting shops
8) Start the ball rolling on reducing number in the P/S, like every organisation I'm sure they have plenty of wasters we could do without, its about time we found the balls to get rid of them.
9) Half the amount of TD's we have, then maybe only the good ones would get elected.:
10) Reduce VAT.
Good points, fair play. I'd be for the Australian model on unemployment myself. You get paid a basic (say $100) and you have to work for the rest of it. Would sort out the slackers and be a big boost to communities.

why dont you talk to people on the min wage and see how hard it is to get by? BTW cut Prsi if you want to reduce cost of employment. There are many out there that would love to use the current situation as a stick to beat workers with!

I am an employer but trying to look at both sides here and how hard a time some people are going through. It seems to me as if your arse is firmly planted on one side of the fence!

Also the 'laymans' economics may have served us better than the shower of 'pros' who drove us head first into this mess.

You need to be more understanding of the suffering and frustration that is out there!
Well if you're an employer you should know that someone on the minimum wage is by and large someone entering a new industry with little or no experience in that industry. They start off on minimum and work their way up. By and large these are mainly young workers new to the workforce, unskilled workers entering a new sector, or students/part-tiime/holiday workers - on the whole you are not talking about people who have dependants and mortgages to pay. It is mostly young single workers with disposable income. Getting the minimum wage down is about making it attractive for employers to create NEW jobs. It is not about retrospectively cutting the wages of current employees. If a worker is in an industry and has experience in that industry, they are not on the minimum wage. If they are they need a meeting with their boss!

The minimum wage is about the bigger picture. It's about making us more competitive going forward and being able to offer product and services to the public at prices similar to the UK etc. It's about being able to attract foreign enterprises back in to the country and to create jobs. Why do you think Dell moved to Poland from Limerick? Beyond enterprise and employment, people do have to fight their own battles as well. One example is anyone paying rent should be looking to have it reduced as residential rent has fallen hugely. Wages may be getting cut but other living costs are falling too.

My arse isn't planted on one side of the fence. I've a six month old daughter and a partner with no current income and being self employed, money is tight at the minute. Child benefit will be cut tomorrow, but I'm not going to throw my toys out of the pram. If it's necessary it has to be done and we have to accept it. I am sick of this bulls**t 'poor me' attitude from Public Sector workers. We all have to take a hit and the current climate is tough for everyone, no matter what job you're in. But no, not the Public Sector. Expect strikes galore after tomorrow :rolleyes:

Even if I accept that you can't just 'tax the rich' to solve the problem, which again wasn't my only solution as you conveniently ignore Bank Nationalization and Job Creation as progressive solutions to the shortfall. It was a part of an overall alternative to the blanket ****ing over of working class people which is the governments solution.

It is simply a nonsense to say that the there is some parity in how the rich and the working people are being dealt with by the Government. Workers are being disproportionately hurt by these cuts. If we all have to take cuts, why cant those most able to afford it pay the most? Why aren't they paying anything significant at all?

More than just high earners the super rich who milked the Celtic Tiger bollocks dry were giving so much tax loopholes, grants and an stupidly low corporation tax to begin with that Ireland was running effectively as a Tax Haven. For example: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1202/revenue.html These people should be retrospectively taxed at the normal rates.



This is an interesting argument brought up quite a lot. So the reason we can't possibly Tax'em is that they'll simply avoid paying it? ...You can see the obvious flaw in this argument?



lol And where did your expert professional economics get the world economy? Eh? The economics of greed, low taxes, low wages and destroying labor unions? It got this country(and all countries) into this aweful mess and your answer is more of the same please? Get over yourself.

High Earning and Wealth usually have very little actual correlation with "hard work" and its fairly disgusting for you to insinuate that given what actually caused this crisis. Super rich people working easy private sector jobs, manipulating a system they didn't understand for the sole purpose of ****ing everyone over to make them rich. Thats the sum total of your professional economics that ruined this country. So take your arrogance elsewhere. (A long but good story about the banking crisis: http://www.portfolio.com/news-markets/national-news/portfolio/2008/11/11/The-End-of-Wall-Streets-Boom/?print=true)

And you can create all the strawmen arguments you like it wont make the content of what your saying any stronger. Did I anywhere say we should abolish the Private Sector? No. So drop the argumentation fallacies.



Exactly.
All you seem to want to do is get rid of everything that rewards and tax tax tax. Why do you think Corporation Tax was low?!? You seem to have a chip on your shoulder but taxing everything will not work. Regarding the high earners, they're already avoiding paying tax through tax shelters. Surely you know this? The only way you will get them is if you Levy their income at source. But if you do that, say at 30% for arguments sake, and they can't avoid it, who will you really end up getting? You'll get the guy who's on €100k alright and has worked his way up to get it, you'll get the highly paid company executive on the ground, but you won't get many of the really big guys on the €500k as those that can afford it will just elope and become tax exiles. They'll still be here, doing their business, they just won't be paying tax, and there's plenty of examples of them walking around the country already. You're then in to Wealth Tax territory which is another game of soldiers altogether. I agree that the super rich should be taxed but it is not as simple as just doing it unfortunately.

With regards the bit I've bolded, where does greed come in to it? Just try and look past your own nose for a minute at the bigger picture going forward and less of the Public Sector hysterics.

We'll all be more the wiser anyway tomorrow lads!

[windhover]

A reduction in the minimum wage would be for new employment and taking new employees on, not cutting the wages of current employees :rolleyes:

of course only new employees and not exisitng ones :rolleyes: as if

[gowinit6times]

So it has come to this. An Irishman and a Liverpool fan trumpeting the pledges of the British Conservative Party.

Sad days.

You've taken my point entirely out of context. Far be it from 'trumpeting' the Conservative Party (who I have no time for) I was merely using their proposed cut on Corporation Tax as a means of showing that they recognised the success of the Irish economy due to low CT rate.

Now please put forward your reasons for advocating an increase in corporation tax and stop sidetracking from the main point.

[RastaRed]

Jaysus its getting like Plank Kenny's Frontline Show in here:D

[RedPaddy]

The minimum pension age for new public servants will be increased from 65 to 66 - then linked to increases in the State pension age

jasus - they´ll eventually have push it up to 70 with tax relief on your coffin as a parting gift !:rolleyes:

[WexRed]

(7) Sorry thats the way it used to be and was scrapped for good reason. The difference now, compared to back then is that far more have cheaper and faster internet access on a myriad of devices at home and at the racecourse. All this would do is affect another industry adversely as people move to bet online with zero tax. At least there's whatever other taxes and employment generated by these at the moment. This would be a shooting in the foot move.Fair enough but what about the race industry that pays slich so it keeps people in employment, again back to self sufficent time


Yeah thats a different angle regarding the non-bookie element. For the bookies you have to careful in what is the most global of markets where they're competing against the world with none of the differentials that native retail and services have (instant free delivery, no import tax etc.). Its simply a big money market with a discerning and wiley clientele that will go futher than most consumer groups to get the best market value. Although shoppers go to long lengths now too (significantly long trips up North and being internet savvy). Imagine if there was an alternative retail market with no VAT how many would swerve the VATed one (alright could call the black market but this is a legitmate alternative). So it would deffo have to be a non-consumer tax to not be adversely negative and self defeating. I suppose you originally never said it'd be a return to the old betting tax I just picked it up that way the first time I read it. If they choose to pass it on they'd only be shooting themselves in the foot considering the highly competitive market they operate in.