Lisbon Two,How are you going to Vote..?

[Dub13]

This is really heating up in the media over the last few days,so how are you going to vote..?

[padski08]

This is really heating up in the media over the last few days,so how are you going to vote..?

Still undecided, dont really understand the treaty or the effects so hard to make informed decision :eek:

[AthloneScouser]

I havent a clue, all i seem to know is that the country is messed up. But i dont know about this Treaty to decide. And nobody seems to be telling us young lads. I know we should probably research it a bit , but then again the Gov shouldnt be just saying we need a yes.

[Benbecul97]

I havent a clue, all i seem to know is that the country is messed up. But i dont know about this Treaty to decide. And nobody seems to be telling us young lads. I know we should probably research it a bit , but then again the Gov shouldnt be just saying we need a yes.

This seems to be the case for me too. The Gov are banking on getting the treaty passed purely on the basis that the economic situation is so bad here now that we are better off to "be in Europe" and are frightening people into voting yes rather than informing them why they should. The economy is the big difference between now and the first referendum in June 2008. (In fact today is the anniviersary of the collapse of Lehman Brothers).

The main reason people abstained in the first referendum was a lack of understanding/knowledge of the treaty (46%). To me the information been given by the Gov is as bad now as it was prior to the first referendum in June 2008 and they could get a kicking at the polls on October 2.

I have tried (and failed!) to read and fully understand the treaty but from what I can figure out am leaning towards a yes vote.

[elvis]

Basically im voting NO. And thats because its a joke,. we voted NO once, so why should we vote again, the whole point of a democracy is we get a vote to have OUR say, and when we choose what the government dont want they come back again,. If its a NO vote this time, will we have to vote on Lisbon a 3rd time? Probably, but it'll probably be called something else. Anyway thats just my opinion and thats where my vote is going,.

[eoinlfc101]

lads unfortunitly we need europe and we need this treaty to go through also it going through we lose a little bit more of our independance but we are in the same boat there as every other european state i just think the negatives to it are completly outweighed by the positives.

[elvis]

lads unfortunitly we need europe and we need this treaty to go through also it going through we lose a little bit more of our independance but we are in the same boat there as every other european state i just think the negatives to it are completly outweighed by the positives.

Can you tell me what these so called positives are? Because I am yet to hear about them,. And also saying NO doesn't mean we are not in Europe. We stay in the EU regardless.

[SUPERFAN]

it's only a matter of time before we're all screwed even more by this govt,the only reason they haven't done it yet is cos they don't want to rock the boat any more until this treaty is passed.
i think people will vote yes this time out of fear and it will be passed but personally,i'll be voting no again.
i remember a while ago when the local elections were on,i was watching vincent brown's show on tv3 one night and maurice ahern (bertie's brother) was on it.the subject of lisbon came up and 1 of the other people on the panel asked him had he read the treaty and he replied that he didn't know anyone that had read it.that was only 3 months ago.:confused:
the fcukers are just trying to confuse people in to submission,people don't know if they're coming or going with NAMA,Snip Nua,Lisbon etc.they'll probably succeed this time but i hope to fowler they don't...

[Rover 609]

Will be yes,if were doomed might as well be with the rest of Europe cos if its a no vote we'll just be doomed quicker.At least as part of the EU we stand a chance,we've none if were outside it.

[dazzlermac]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw

[elvis]

Lads I just noticed I never received my polling card,. And my parents did,. So what do I do now? Also I agree with what SUPERFAN said, the clowns dont know whats in the treaty, and they dont know whats going to happen if its passed,. Minimum wage goes down for one, and no one is safe from a pay cut, how could you feed a family on the wage thats suggested. This so called government of ours will be the debt of us. (pun intended)

[RedWally]

Voting yes as it seems to be the stance taken by most of the mainstream parties. Haven't time to research it.

[elvis]

Will be yes,if were doomed might as well be with the rest of Europe cos if its a no vote we'll just be doomed quicker.At least as part of the EU we stand a chance,we've none if were outside it.

We are part of the EU, and that wont/cant change. Unless they all decide to make a new group and exclude the countries who vote NO, but that would take years to do.

[Rover 609]

We are part of the EU, and that wont/cant change. Unless they all decide to make a new group and exclude the countries who vote NO, but that would take years to do.

We'll be at the table alright but that will be it,we wont be getting fed.

[scousepaddy]

i have spent hours trying to research it, i still have no idea what its about, why cant they just tell us what happens if we do and what happens if we dont, like a pros and cons of the treaty?

there are no sites that are impartial, it is so annoying

[elvis]

i have spent hours trying to research it, i still have no idea what its about, why cant they just tell us what happens if we do and what happens if we dont, like a pros and cons of the treaty?

there are no sites that are impartial, it is so annoying

Because people would know whats going on,. and once that happens, the government has no control over the voting, this way they do, because they are promoting the 'good' points not the bad.

Sorry lads, im just a very opinionated person. My apologies in advance.

[elvis]

http://www.euronews.net/2008/01/05/pros-and-cons-of-the-lisbon-treaty/

The video on this site, is as close as I can find too a treaty pros and cons,. Might be of interest to people,.

[Liverpool-law]

I know we should probably research it a bit , but then again the Gov shouldnt be just saying we need a yes.

There are flyers in every door from the independent commission giving the pros and cons in simple language. They point you to the website if you need more info. I am not going to tell you which way to vote but it's up to you to inform yourself. Why will no-one take responsibility for their own actions?? This matters to you, one way or the other. Even if you read nothing else, read the basic three page leaflet. It's frankly pathetic if you're old enough to vote but blame the government for not informing you. (Public money paid for those leaflets by the way, so that is the government informing you, you're just not reading it).

The Gov are banking on getting the treaty passed purely on the basis that the economic situation is so bad here now that we are better off to "be in Europe" and are frightening people into voting yes rather than informing them why they should.

The government, and the opposition and the farmers and the employers organisations and the trade unions. FF, FG, Labour, The Greens. What fcuking conspiracy theory is this about? What is the problem?

Basically im voting NO. And thats because its a joke,. we voted NO once, so why should we vote again, the whole point of a democracy is we get a vote to have OUR say, and when we choose what the government dont want they come back again,. If its a NO vote this time, will we have to vote on Lisbon a 3rd time? Probably, but it'll probably be called something else. Anyway thats just my opinion and thats where my vote is going,.

We voted on divorce more than once. We voted on abortion more than once. That is within our own country, nothing to do with europe. So those votes are undemocratic too?? Sorry man, that's bullshit. Setting something in stone for ever more once it's been voted on once is actually the opposite of democracy, not democracy. Think about what you're saying for a minute.

Can you tell me what these so called positives are? Because I am yet to hear about them,. And also saying NO doesn't mean we are not in Europe. We stay in the EU regardless.

I am not going to tell anyone how to vote, my vote is yes but it's up to you to decide. My real problem is people who don't inform themselves, don't make up their own mind. This is not about the fcuking government, it's about the future of the country. What the fcuk about being in Europe for the past 40 years has been so harmful to us that this treaty brings so much to fear? I want to be very clear that I am not attacking anyone here, just think about this carefully and don't make a decision based on hatred for a government or just for the sake of it. Read up on it and make a decision based on what you think is best for the country. I don't know how people can disregard every party, every trade union, these people represent you...

[Benbecul97]

i have spent hours trying to research it, i still have no idea what its about, why cant they just tell us what happens if we do and what happens if we dont, like a pros and cons of the treaty?

there are no sites that are impartial, it is so annoying

This should help:
http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie/lisbon_treaty_your_decision.html

Taken from the Home page above:
The role of the Referendum Commission is to encourage you to vote and to explain, as factually and clearly as possible, what you are voting on. We would urge you to see this website as an independent and unbiased account of the Treaty content. It is required by law to be impartial and factual, and that is what it is.

[scousepaddy]

This should help:
http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie/lisbon_treaty_your_decision.html

Taken from the Home page above:
The role of the Referendum Commission is to encourage you to vote and to explain, as factually and clearly as possible, what you are voting on. We would urge you to see this website as an independent and unbiased account of the Treaty content. It is required by law to be impartial and factual, and that is what it is.

lovelly, how could i not find that!!

[bono]

Voting no myself can't see anything changing if the no vote goes trough + we won't be kicked out of europe for voting no so my thinking is by voting no we will still have the same amount of power as we do now + we will still be in europe.

Its a joke now anyway the Goverment using the recession this time as a way the get us to vote yes the Goverment should be creating more jobs anyway not saying we will get more jobs if we vote yes it's bull really.

[Benbecul97]

There are flyers in every door from the independent commission giving the pros and cons in simple language.

If they are being distributed I've yet to receive one and its just over 2 weeks to polling.

The government, and the opposition and the farmers and the employers organisations and the trade unions. FF, FG, Labour, The Greens. What fcuking conspiracy theory is this about? What is the problem?

Its the opinion of a large number of people I talk with and have seen/heard interviewed...call them conspiracy theorists if you wish.

My real problem is people who don't inform themselves, don't make up their own mind. This is not about the fcuking government, it's about the future of the country. What the fcuk about being in Europe for the past 40 years has been so harmful to us that this treaty brings so much to fear? I want to be very clear that I am not attacking anyone here, just think about this carefully and don't make a decision based on hatred for a government or just for the sake of it. Read up on it and make a decision based on what you think is best for the country. I don't know how people can disregard every party, every trade union, these people represent you...

As I said in my previous post above "I have tried (and failed!) to read and fully understand the treaty but from what I can figure out am leaning towards a yes vote."...so I am trying to inform myself...I agree with you people should try to inform themselves but there are plenty of the electorate that will not have the time or interest to do so...this is where the government come in and they are not doing a very good job about it...in fact they are just not good at communicating - no matter what the topic is - and there are numerous examples of this...where are the party policitcal broadcasts from each party explaining the treaty to people? they should be happening now after the 9 o'clock news each evening...I have yet to see one and as time lingers on the No side will be sowing further doubts/negative spin in voters minds...but I, like you, hope that it will be passed.

[Jockser]

voting No

[redeagle]

voting No

you? I am shocked :D

[Juan]

Voting No.

[Ali]

I'm just sick of being told that unless we vote yes we won't get out of this recession.

It's the government's recklessness that got us into this state so why should we now believe them when they say that ratifying this treaty will get us back to normal?

[djdwainec]

if i vote ill be voting no

[AthloneScouser]

There are flyers in every door from the independent commission giving the pros and cons in simple language. They point you to the website if you need more info. I am not going to tell you which way to vote but it's up to you to inform yourself. Why will no-one take responsibility for their own actions?? This matters to you, one way or the other. Even if you read nothing else, read the basic three page leaflet. It's frankly pathetic if you're old enough to vote but blame the government for not informing you. (Public money paid for those leaflets by the way, so that is the government informing you, you're just not reading it).




Slightly harsh.
I havent received one flyer in my door. Us that are not in the 'know' and dont understand this stuff, should be fully explained. Its the government that want it passes, so yes they should be informing me. Not my fault if i dont understand it. And from what ive read on net and other views it seems that its you and a small minority that fully understand it.
You seem to be trying to insult my intellegence by suggesting its pathetic.

[Liverpool-law]

I'm not insulting your intelligence. I am not talking about the Treaty in this case. In any vote on any topic you need to make up your own mind, you need to make your own decision. No-one can make it for you. Just make your decision for the right reasons. The treaty has been in the news again for the past few weeks, we all have access to the internet. It matters to you and your future, you can read about it on the web. Someone posted the link above, have a read of it and see what you think.

[AthloneScouser]

I know, but i just cant figure out what to do as i just dont fully understand it. There seems to be good and bad points and tbh i dont know which weighs out best.
Anyway ive another while to go before i vote and ill be reading all them links.

[GaryMc]

Will be voting no. As pointed out elsewhere we voted already on this and the people spoke, now Cow Face and his cronies are trying to force us to vote yes.

I think the yes vote will win, but I will be voting no.

[irishman123]

i,m voting no because our first vote wasn,t respected , if we voted yes last time would we be voting again? i dont think so!

[elvis]

I’ll be honest, I don’t understand much of all this Lisbon treaty fuss. But what I do know makes me nervous. It may be that I am ill educated on it, but as has been posted by other people, I am not alone – an RTE poll at the end of April showed only 5% of people understood what it was about.

The Lisbon Treaty is obviously significant and important, so it should be reflected in the efforts to educate the public on what they are about to vote on.
Everybody I have spoken to feels that the No campaigners are sensationalist, but the Yes campaigners have not given a compelling reason to vote yes, other than ‘Trust us, we’re politicians, this is good for you’.

To illustrate the kind of thing I’m talking about, Minister for European Affairs Dick Roche was quoted in the irish Times as saying:
“There is no way the Government would have negotiated anything that was detrimental to our interests,”
Oh that’s fine then, let’s all vote Yes.
He goes on to say:
“Ireland’s interests are undoubtedly best served by continued engagement in Europe. There’s no future for us as a standalone nation cut adrift from Europe.”
Is he inferring that a No vote will result in our being cut adrift from Europe? What nonsense. Worse, it’s dangerous scaremongering nonsense.

I’m so sick of being told that we owe it to Europe, let’s not be left behind by Europe, let’s ‘be at the heart of it.’
We ARE at the heart of it. We ARE PART of the EU, stop making it sound like a No vote is a vote to LEAVE. It’s not.

Roche also said:
there was “no benefit” in frustrating the European Union when it is “more or less unanimous” on the treaty.

I find that unanimity hard to believe as far as the public in the EU goes, given that the EU Constitution was abandoned due to the no votes of the French and Dutch people. A bit of shifting of language and bit of manoevering to avoid referendums in most countries and here we are again.

No thank you.
A Yes vote is a vote of confidence that we trust the powers that be that the entire contents of the Lisbon Treaty (and the bits of it that they will make up later) are hunky dorey – it’s a vote of confidence because they have not taken the time to educate the public over a reasonable length of time for something this serious, in my opinion.


This link might be slightly biased but, it helped me in a way.
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/87518

[Podgecheco]

Voting no without a doubt mainly cos i just dont trust the government or the EU for that matter its all part of a greater scheme..in years to come wel look back with regret if we pass this treaty

[kopie78]

I think they will keep putting it in front of us till they get a yes vote any ways

[Fowler-9-]

I tried to understand, have used my own resources to try and gather information, received no information on pro's and cons. Received no information on purely the Yes vote but have recieved information on why i should vote no.

How much worse can it get.I have a group of 8 friends, six of them done apprenticeships, 1 worked in retail shop and the other went to college with me. I am 19, my mates ages vary from 17-23.

Apprentices.
3 Electricians
2 Refrigeration Engineers
1 Plumber.

The 3 Electricians were let go, 2 of whom were 3 months from serving there time. 1 was a year in after leaving school, he is 19 now with no leaving cert, no qualifications no hope of getting a job. Can't get into college to young to be a mature student, and will most certainly be priced out of it.

One of the refrigeration engineers was let go, the other, my brother is still working for the company, on a flat basic week on severly reduced wage and hours.

The plumber was let go.

My friend who worked in the retail store was let go.

Me and my other mate ar going to college, this year my mate had to drop out as he didn't qualify for a grant because his ma and da work. Both have been cut to 3 day weeks and are trying to educate his two younger brothers nd couldn't afford the registration fee. He cannot get the labour now as his ma and da both work, his ma will be getting a childrens allowance cut also???!!!?

I'm awaiting confirmation on whether i qualify for a grant, if i can't qualify most likely i'll be dropping out with no labour money either.

Now the Government want us to pay more college fees on top of this, the same government that have refused to replace pregnant lecturers, are they going to deny teachers sex now? I have lost 1 of my 6 modules this year because college can't replace teacher on maternity leave. They expect me to pay for this, am i fcuk.

Out of 8 friends and my self, 1 has a job and 1 goes to college. The rest spend there day playing Pitch and Putt for 2.50 on there unwaged cards.

Fcuk you Cowan, Ahern Lenihan. Me bollix, dupe me into voting yes so you have me by the bollix bring minimum wage down, were will that leave me then.

By the way how was your holiday Cowan? Prick.

Voting No.

[bobby benitez]

RTE 1 radio has a good slot every friday this month with the leader of the lisbon commisson. Basically he answers question sent him from listeners. He is impartial and I would highly reccomend that people in the undecided bracket or those who feel they are uninformed listen in and educate yourself on the subject.

I am undecided by the way,leaning towards yes.

[northside red]

POLITICS IS LIKE SEX

NO MEANS NO

TO Make us vote twice in a democracy is shameful.
No means nothing changes, we stay in Europe, things go on the same, its worked for 50 years.

Yes means little, we stay in Europe but our voice is weakened as bigger new entrants such as Poland get more of a say.

I'm voting no as its the right thing to do, and my vote should have been respected first time.

[rev]

Having read the treaty and not understanding a word! I took my own research and will be voting no
Don't agree with us possibly losing our commisioner for 5 years

[scousepaddy]

http://www.independent.ie/special-features/your-eu/the-lisbon-treaty-for-dummies-1376340.html

This link has helped clear it up a bit for me, but I am still nowhere near well enough informed on this!

[pam]

from the people that has voted on here its very close, with the yes vote just ahead.
any one that i have spoken too, dont understand quite what they are voting for and the fear of the unknown, Time to read up people, and hopefully the right decision will be made for the good of us all, Because i dont think it can get any worse.

[Paul]

POLITICS IS LIKE SEX

NO MEANS NO

TO Make us vote twice in a democracy is shameful.
No means nothing changes, we stay in Europe, things go on the same, its worked for 50 years.

Yes means little, we stay in Europe but our voice is weakened as bigger new entrants such as Poland get more of a say.

I'm voting no as its the right thing to do, and my vote should have been respected first time.

No means No, remember divorce getting the big no with 66% :eek:
I guess in a democracy people can change their minds ;)

[JOE]

POLITICS IS LIKE SEX

NO MEANS NO

TO Make us vote twice in a democracy is shameful.
No means nothing changes, we stay in Europe, things go on the same, its worked for 50 years.

Yes means little, we stay in Europe but our voice is weakened as bigger new entrants such as Poland get more of a say.

I'm voting no as its the right thing to do, and my vote should have been respected first time.

As Paul has stated, Bunreacht Na hEireann does not prohibit a repeat referendum...

How does nothing change? Could you elaborate as it seems to be the same spiel i get from many people who are unable to back up their assertion...Have you considered how Ireland would be received on the bond market following a rejection of Lisbon? How many investors do you think would want to invest then?

Why is your "no" the right thing to do? Do you actually have any cogent argument in favour of your point...

I'm not picking on you rather genuinely interested in your response as i've got some strange ones over the last few weeks...

[elvis]

As Paul has stated, Bunreacht Na hEireann does not prohibit a repeat referendum...

How does nothing change? Could you elaborate as it seems to be the same spiel i get from many people who are unable to back up their assertion...Have you considered how Ireland would be received on the bond market following a rejection of Lisbon? How many investors do you think would want to invest then?

Why is your "no" the right thing to do? Do you actually have any cogent argument in favour of your point...

I'm not picking on you rather genuinely interested in your response as i've got some strange ones over the last few weeks...

Can you give a response as to why you are voting yes? Because i've got strange answers, and answers that dont make sense from people I know,. Like we have to stay in Europe,. It cant get much worse. We said No and got a recession,. So why are you saying yes?

[marathonman]

In my opinion the Lisbon vote is secondary to the NAMA deabate and I personally see the country as a basket case after this piece of legislation is enacted. Can't believe that this will go through without a vote. We know it is going to be bad when the developers,banks and the government are all pushing for it to go through. Keeps the gravy train rolling.The ordinary 4/5ths
wishes always come a poor second to the higher echelons of our society. Only reason there is a vote on Lisbon at all is because they have no choice. Terrible situation that these unqualified muppets have put us in.
Absolutely disgraceful, but we have allowed it to happen so we are as bad.

[JOE]

Can you give a response as to why you are voting yes? Because i've got strange answers, and answers that dont make sense from people I know,. Like we have to stay in Europe,. It cant get much worse. We said No and got a recession,. So why are you saying yes?

Certainly, other than the institutional changes and the monetary issues regarding the ECB, bonds etc that i have previously commented upon, three important issues come to mind;

Firstly, it expands the right of individuals to bring proceedings before the ECJ giving them locus standi...

Secondly, and most importantly it gives legal effect to the Charter of Fundamental Rights and recognises the rights and freedoms...the charter is akin to a bill of rights, and in many instances goes further to protect the individual than the Bunreacht na heireann...

And finally, it will allow the EU to accede to the European Convention on Human Rights...

There are many other comments that i could make re our failure to ratify the treaty, consequences etc, but they are all if/but/maybe scenarios which are easily rebutted so i've concentrated on the text of the treaty above...

Now, could you give your cogent reasons?

[DukeyLFC]

WOW, judging by the votes so far this one could be close, though I suppose if you make the public go to the polls enough times eventually they'll get sick of it and probably just vote yes to end it all! Isnt this what the 2nd(?) at least, referendum on this? Once a referendum vote is no there should not be antoher poll for at least 5 years! :confused:

[General]

Will be yes,if were doomed might as well be with the rest of Europe cos if its a no vote we'll just be doomed quicker.At least as part of the EU we stand a chance,we've none if were outside it.

Seems to be a lot of confusion here regarding this treaty. I have read and understand as much of it as possible. This treaty has absolutely nothing to do with our membership of the EU - it's mainly to do with the way the european parliament operates. Lot of ridiculous scaretactics employed by both sides but personally, I am voting no as my reading of it is that the traty is self-amending and this is not in our national interest. If we vote no (again), we still remain members of the EU.

[General]

As Paul has stated, Bunreacht Na hEireann does not prohibit a repeat referendum...

How does nothing change? Could you elaborate as it seems to be the same spiel i get from many people who are unable to back up their assertion...Have you considered how Ireland would be received on the bond market following a rejection of Lisbon? How many investors do you think would want to invest then?

Why is your "no" the right thing to do? Do you actually have any cogent argument in favour of your point...

I'm not picking on you rather genuinely interested in your response as i've got some strange ones over the last few weeks...

Would there be a repeat referendum if we had voted yes???? Just because it is not prohibited under the constitution does not make it nauseatingly arrogant to disregard the people who voted!!

[JOE]

Would there be a repeat referendum if we had voted yes???? Just because it is not prohibited under the constitution does not make it nauseatingly arrogant to disregard the people who voted!!

It may be true that the people are sovereign and not the state, however, remember, the people gave the power to the current government to make decisions on their behalf...I think you and many others miss that point...

[liver06]

i,m voting no because our first vote wasn,t respected , if we voted yes last time would we be voting again? i dont think so!

eh,obviously not????:confused:

[Fowler's God]

Definitely voting no, this treaty is a load of bollocks. Designed by corporations to reap financial and corporate power to shit on all people.

We are under threat people and the European Central Bank will control all, our countries debt will increase. Mass emigration will occur if this treaty is passed, no jobs. Exploitation of our country will occur and the local economies will suffer. Corporations will rule all and screw us over as the manipulate our corrupt government politicans.

I would advise to watch this:

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

[liverbird!!]

No is No, where i come from, so they can fcuk off

I'm not willing to get into another debate on this, and when we said no the last time it should have been accepted and respected, simple as!! These cnuts are ruining our country and anyone that accepts that they have our interests at heart should take a step back and consider what will happen if they are pulling the wool over our eyes like last time, sure they constantly lied in the last referendum and they lost it, now they can't get enough shi.t in the doors.

People all i'll say is take a step back and just consider why they want this through so much!

[Liverpool-law]

People all i'll say is take a step back and just consider why they want this through so much!

Is it because the EU which has been so good for Ireland is getting bogged down because of the current voting rules and they need to be changed to enable it to be more than just a talking shop where everyone is vetoing everyone else? (yes is the answer)

Conspiracy theories are used by people who can't find any problem with the treaty, they make them up.

Every major political party, trade unions (representing workers), employers organisations (representing businesses), farmers are all backing this. Voting No is not in the interests of this country and anyone who flies in the face of advice from every public organisation advising them to do otherwise resorts to conspiracy theories.

The government and every politician and every trade union and employers organisation and farmers organisation is out to get you, they are getting something out of this, don't you see, they don't have your interests at heart, they are puppets of the conglomerates and corporations who are on the payroll and want the ordinary person to pay more tax and lose their job!!!! (although how you're going to pay more tax when no-one has a job is unclear but let's not let facts get in the way of a good old rant) Let's cut through the crap and call a spade a spade, it's ignorant, unsubstantiated, scaremongering BULLSHIT.

[JOE]

Definitely voting no, this treaty is a load of bollocks. Designed by corporations to reap financial and corporate power to shit on all people.

We are under threat people and the European Central Bank will control all, our countries debt will increase. Mass emigration will occur if this treaty is passed, no jobs. Exploitation of our country will occur and the local economies will suffer. Corporations will rule all and screw us over as the manipulate our corrupt government politicans.

I would advise to watch this:

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

Are you actually serious there or taking the piss?

You claim one document is propaganda in your references above and then quote another...the bible for conspiracy theorists...

[liverbird!!]

Is it because the EU which has been so good for Ireland is getting bogged down because of the current voting rules and they need to be changed to enable it to be more than just a talking shop where everyone is vetoing everyone else? (yes is the answer)

Conspiracy theories are used by people who can't find any problem with the treaty, they make them up.

Every major political party, trade unions (representing workers), employers organisations (representing businesses), farmers are all backing this. Voting No is not in the interests of this country and anyone who flies in the face of advice from every public organisation advising them to do otherwise resorts to conspiracy theories.

The government and every politician and every trade union and employers organisation and farmers organisation is out to get you, they are getting something out of this, don't you see, they don't have your interests at heart, they are puppets of the conglomerates and corporations who are on the payroll and want the ordinary person to pay more tax and lose their job!!!! (although how you're going to pay more tax when no-one has a job is unclear but let's not let facts get in the way of a good old rant) Let's cut through the crap and call a spade a spade, it's ignorant, unsubstantiated, scaremongering BULLSHIT.

Not getting into it! your entitled to your opinion.

Let's cut through the crap and call a spade a spade, it's ignorant, unsubstantiated, scaremongering BULLSHIT.

Let's steamroll over the irish people and fcuk their opinion!!!:rolleyes:

[Rover 609]

This country has got far more out of been a member of the EU than its put in.50 odds years of a united Europe have done far more good than harm from where i'm sitting.This is the progression of that and if voting yes means Europe progresses as one i'm in.

And i have no political interest or allegiance of any description.

[Fowler's God]

Are you actually serious there or taking the piss?

You claim one document is propaganda in your references above and then quote another...the bible for conspiracy theorists...

I am absolutely serious, the European Central Bank (ECB) if this Treaty goes through will have control all things in the monetary system much like the Federal Reserve in America who control everything. The ECB will be the very same and our consititution will be worth sweet FA if this gets passed - don't let this jokers pull the wool over your eyes.

Brainwashed society we have if you think this is good not only for Ireland but the rest of Europe. We will be one big state and soon enough you will see the end of what our ancestors worked for going down the swanney.

[liverbird!!]

I am absolutely serious, the European Central Bank (ECB) if this Treaty goes through will have control all things in the monetary system much like the Federal Reserve in America who control everything. The ECB will be the very same and our consititution will be worth sweet FA if this gets passed - don't let this jokers pull the wool over your eyes.

Brainwashed society we have if you think this is good not only for Ireland but the rest of Europe. We will be one big state and soon enough you will see the end of what our ancestors worked for going down the swanney.

A british MP, Proved this point when a memo leaked at the time off last referendum, stated we won't explain certain aspects of this treaty until the after IRISH vote!!!

How are we to believe this is in our intersets?????

[JOE]

A british MP, Proved this point when a memo leaked at the time off last referendum, stated we won't explain certain aspects of this treaty until the after IRISH vote!!!

How are we to believe this is in our intersets?????

You mean you haven't read the treaty...If not, there's no point in me engaging with you on this topic...

[liverbird!!]

You mean you haven't read the treaty...If not, there's no point in me engaging with you on this topic...

Thank You!

[Rover 609]

Thank You!

hahaha!!

[ronnie10]

Read somewhere that them minimum wage will be €1.84 if we go into the Lisbon Treaty. Ireland will keep their own tax levels (which we all know are ridiculously high). Alot of people are struggling now as it is and it will only get worse. The Iish commisioner has no influence on anything that will happen in Ireland. The dole rate will be lowered in correspondance with the other European countries so there again people are going to be hit. The government say that we'll get out of recession by voting yes but in truth we are going to be less of especially the less off people who will be getting lower social welfare and still the same taxes to be paid and mortgage rates will increase if nama is passed as banks profit margins will be much tighter so they reckon that they will increase the rates. All these years fighting for a Ireland and now going to throw everthing away by signing this stupid treaty.There are more clowns running our country than you would find in a circus anywhere in the world.

[Fowler's God]

Read somewhere that them minimum wage will be €1.84 if we go into the Lisbon Treaty. Ireland will keep their own tax levels (which we all know are ridiculously high). Alot of people are struggling now as it is and it will only get worse. The Iish commisioner has no influence on anything that will happen in Ireland. The dole rate will be lowered in correspondance with the other European countries so there again people are going to be hit. The government say that we'll get out of recession by voting yes but in truth we are going to be less of especially the less off people who will be getting lower social welfare and still the same taxes to be paid and mortgage rates will increase if nama is passed as banks profit margins will be much tighter so they reckon that they will increase the rates. All these years fighting for a Ireland and now going to throw everthing away by signing this stupid treaty.There are more clowns running our country than you would find in a circus anywhere in the world.


+1 - this NAMA crap is similar to the Federal Reserve and ECB - we're ****ed either way. No No No No No go screw yourselves Barrosa and co. Ireland is not for sale nor is our constitution rights.

[GaryMc]

+1 - this NAMA crap is similar to the Federal Reserve and ECB - we're ****ed either way. No No No No No go screw yourselves Barrosa and co. Ireland is not for sale nor is our constitution rights.

Eventually Europe will become more and more Like the United States of America. There will be a President of Europe and then each country will have a head of state.

Whether that is a good or bad thing, I don't know. All I do know is that this country has the most inept bunch of shitwits running it for the last few years. Good old Bertie timed it well, jumped ship before the shit hit the fan.

As pointed out above though, it was the people of Ireland that elected them. The alternatives don't seem much better though.

[liverbird!!]

+1 - this NAMA crap is similar to the Federal Reserve and ECB - we're ****ed either way. No No No No No go screw yourselves Barrosa and co. Ireland is not for sale nor is our constitution rights.

It is if these fcukers get their way! I can tell you this! i'm no fcuking way for sale!!!











Unless i get a decent offer:rolleyes:

[sultana]

Read somewhere that them minimum wage will be €1.84 if we go into the Lisbon Treaty. Ireland will keep their own tax levels (which we all know are ridiculously high). Alot of people are struggling now as it is and it will only get worse. The Iish commisioner has no influence on anything that will happen in Ireland. The dole rate will be lowered in correspondance with the other European countries so there again people are going to be hit. The government say that we'll get out of recession by voting yes but in truth we are going to be less of especially the less off people who will be getting lower social welfare and still the same taxes to be paid and mortgage rates will increase if nama is passed as banks profit margins will be much tighter so they reckon that they will increase the rates. All these years fighting for a Ireland and now going to throw everthing away by signing this stupid treaty.There are more clowns running our country than you would find in a circus anywhere in the world.

Each one of those statements is a lie.

[bryanod]

Yes, because we're a bunch of begrudgin b*stards and the scaremongering is unbelievable which can be seen jsut above.

[Juan]

Like the Lisbon treaty...I reckon a lot of people who voted this government in,
would also like to get a second chance, at that election result!

[liverbird!!]

Unbelieveable that we are inviting other member state ministers and ex leaders to advise us on voting yes, typical of the fcukers trying to interfere in democracy of Irish people, fcuk off as we can make up our own minds as we've done last time. Maybe this time they'll listen????????

Enda Kenny stared on news that the €1.84 per hour minimu
wage was a lie, maybe it won't be that low but it will be lower than what is is today, Fact!!!!

[JOE]

Unbelieveable that we are inviting other member state ministers and ex leaders to advise us on voting yes, typical of the fcukers trying to interfere in democracy of Irish people, fcuk off as we can make up our own minds as we've done last time. Maybe this time they'll listen????????

Enda Kenny stared on news that the €1.84 per hour minimu
wage was a lie, maybe it won't be that low but it will be lower than what is is today, Fact!!!!

I couldn't leave this post...you haven't read the treaty and now you're talking about fact?

Do you know that the minimum wage is set by statute and the EU have no competence in this area where we have set a minimum wage...Honestly, were do get this stuff...we should have some sort of footnote option on threads like this to put a halt to unsubstantiated comments...

[D-Red]

Do you know that the minimum wage is set by statute and the EU have no competence in this area where we have set a minimum wage....

What do you mean by that?

[ronnie10]

The government are so intent on us voting yes, what have they done to actually explain what the lisbon treaty is. All I hear from da fat pig is WE HAVE TO VOTE YES IN LISBON. Its such a complex issue but yet and all the government havent explained to the public the whole ins and outs of it.

[liverbird!!]

I couldn't leave this post...you haven't read the treaty and now you're talking about fact?

Do you know that the minimum wage is set by statute and the EU have no competence in this area where we have set a minimum wage...Honestly, were do get this stuff...we should have some sort of footnote option on threads like this to put a halt to unsubstantiated comments...

You have took it upon yourself to decide that I haven't read the treaty, not very many people have read it as it would take months to get your head around it, FACT! Don't try tell me that you have, as most politicians haven't even bothered their bol lox reading it. I've read what I think I needed too and it's my opinion!
You don't have to agree and clearly don't. At the end of all this if people truely believe this is right for the country it will be FACT. But they shod never try take people as gob-shit es and not try backmail them saying we'll be European outcasts if this is not passed. If we vote no, the. The treaty in itself is dead in the water as it should have been last time FACT!

[D-Red]

You have took it upon yourself to decide that I haven't read the treaty, not very many people have read it as it would take months to get your head around it, FACT! Don't try tell me that you have, as most politicians haven't even bothered their bol lox reading it. I've read what I think I needed too and it's my opinion!
You don't have to agree and clearly don't. At the end of all this if people truely believe this is right for the country it will be FACT. But they shod never try take people as gob-shit es and not try backmail them saying we'll be European outcasts if this is not passed. If we vote no, the. The treaty in itself is dead in the water as it should have been last time FACT!

Is it just me, or are a larger portion of the people who are voting "Yes", trying to belittle the intelligence of the people who are voting "No"? Certainly in this thread, if you read back through it, the ones voting Yes (not all of them, just some), seem quite quick to take a dig at some of our "No" voters.

I haven't seen too many "No" voters resorting to the same tactics.

Just an observation....

[Rover 609]

(not all of them, just some), seem quite quick to take a dig at some of our "No" voters.

not me:D

[D-Red]

not me:D

haha, Very true Ronan! Very true!

[liverbird!!]

Is it just me, or are a larger portion of the people who are voting "Yes", trying to belittle the intelligence of the people who are voting "No"? Certainly in this thread, if you read back through it, the ones voting Yes (not all of them, just some), seem quite quick to take a dig at some of our "No" voters.

I haven't seen too many "No" voters resorting to the same tactics.

Just an observation....


NO! Or do I mean YES!:D

I personally wouldn't lower myself:D:p

[D-Red]

NO! Or do I mean YES!:D

I personally wouldn't lower myself:D:p

And fair play to you for taking that stance. No doubt I'll get taken apart in a while for what I just said. BUT, if anyone reads back through this thread, then they'll see a pattern, that's all I'm saying.

And, as Ronan pointed out, its not ALL the yes brigade behaving like that, but too many are. And that could be counter-productive in the long-run.

[conman]

Is it just me, or are a larger portion of the people who are voting "Yes", trying to belittle the intelligence of the people who are voting "No"? Certainly in this thread, if you read back through it, the ones voting Yes (not all of them, just some), seem quite quick to take a dig at some of our "No" voters.

I haven't seen too many "No" voters resorting to the same tactics.

Just an observation....

i havent quoted on either, but from reading the last page only..
there is a lot of make believe written here from the no camp, sometimes stated as fact, when infact it isnt. so, its fairly easy for anyone to take the upper hand on that argument. base your facts on facts or keep your thoughts to yourself.

Yet I dont agree with the process of accepting a treaty at all, we all know its a vote and vote again until you vote yes, and the threats from that French W*nker to us previously, and now the to the Czechs should be enough for people to stand up against the EU on the basis of trying to influence a vote by means of bullying or anti social type behavior. Last year I was absolutely in the NO, and Saracozys part in it was huge, Would i want him making choices on our behalf if we had no commissioner for a few years? lol.... so, no!

I have yet to re-read the actual FACTs about Nice³, but I will before I decide.
I do believe YES will be the vote from Ireland though, as too many will buy into a yes for Europe as we are Europeans and we are not rejecting them yada yada, and because we are in financial strife and need the EU, and also as I think the public will get tired of re voting NO... c'est la vie...

[James]

Is it just me, or are a larger portion of the people who are voting "Yes", trying to belittle the intelligence of the people who are voting "No"? Certainly in this thread, if you read back through it, the ones voting Yes (not all of them, just some), seem quite quick to take a dig at some of our "No" voters.

I haven't seen too many "No" voters resorting to the same tactics.

Just an observation....

Isn't this just one of the delusions of democracy though? People are entitled to have their say but many often let their mind and ego get in the way of something as simple as a vote which then turns into a dispute and sometimes violence. I am all for a good debate but these days there always seem to be people that let simple little things (and a yes no vote is the simplest thing there is) bring out the worst in themselves.

[bobby benitez]

And fair play to you for taking that stance. No doubt I'll get taken apart in a while for what I just said. BUT, if anyone reads back through this thread, then they'll see a pattern, that's all I'm saying.

And, as Ronan pointed out, its not ALL the yes brigade behaving like that, but too many are. And that could be counter-productive in the long-run.

Your probably right D-Red but a lot of the responses from the Yes side are just replying to pure lies. Not many on the yes side are quoting outlandish lies.

From reading back through the thread only 3 or 4 posters on the No side have any logic to there reasons for voting no. The rest are acting like 4 year olds.

[D-Red]

Isn't this just one of the delusions of democracy though? People are entitled to have their say but many often let their mind and ego get in the way of something as simple as a vote which then turns into a dispute and sometimes violence. I am all for a good debate but these days there always seem to be people that let simple little things (and a yes no vote is the simplest thing there is) bring out the worst in themselves.

Very well phrased.

I actually couldn't agree more. Excellent post james.

[conman]

Your probably right D-Red but a lot of the responses from the Yes side are just replying to pure lies. Not many on the yes side are quoting outlandish lies.

From reading back through the thread only 3 or 4 posters on the No side have any logic to there reasons for voting no. The rest are acting like 4 year olds.

seems like that alright.

[redabbey]

Read somewhere that them minimum wage will be €1.84 if we go into the Lisbon Treaty.

WOW someone gullible enough to believe the lie on the COIR posters. Every EU state has complete control over the minimum wage in their own country.

This will not change if we vote YES or NO.

[Juan]

The EU didnt collapse or stand still,when the french and dutch voted against the european constitution in 2005,it carried on as normal. as it will if there is a no vote this time around again.(they got the right to vote taken from them,in case they voted no again)
(then again,the elite would change the definition of demrocracy,again)

Also wasnt the government compelled to recognise the democratic view of the irish people,last time? not to bow under pressure from brussels,and undermine the will of the people?

Polls from other european countries, have said that given the chance to vote,then the lisbon treaty would be crushed.

And what sealed a no vote from me, is that micheal o leary has pledged to spend 500k on a yes advert campaign. while calling no voters "economic illiterates".
you couldnt make it up...... but then again ..they have.

[bobby benitez]

5 countries have voted on Lisbon. Ireland, Spain, Luxumberg, Holland and France have all voted and overall more people have said Yes than No.

Why do people think every country in the EU is out to screw poor little Ireland? Lets be honest here, if Germany or France for example wanted to screws us over, it would hardly be worth their while, just a drop in the ocean to them.


Anyone know why this poll is closed by the way?

[Juan]

[QUOTE=bobby benitez;230828]5 countries have voted on Lisbon. Ireland, Spain, Luxumberg, Holland and France have all voted and overall more people have said Yes than No.

your wrong..the french public voted no to the European constitution in 2005..as did the dutch. so the french government changed its own constitution..
so that its government could ratify the lisbon treaty,against the democratic will of its people.
the dutch government did exactly the same...after its people voted no also, and in both cases it was a resounding no vote as well.

The spanish people had no vote on lisbon.....its senate ratified it.

Luxembourgs people also did not vote...... its government ratified it.

complete nonsense that 5 countries voted and overall more said yes than no!! beggers belief.

[bobby benitez]

I heard a guy on the radio yesterday who works for the referendum commission ( supposed to be impartial ) and he said that overall more people have voted yes than no.

I would love to vote no and send a big **** off to our government and Brussels but unfortunately IMO a yes is far more important than that.

I cant wait for this to be over. Gobbels would be proud of the propaganda being spun by both sides, however the reason I am going to vote yes is because I have found the lies from the no side to be ridiculous and the names associated with the No side (SF,Declan Ganley, British National Party etc) are concerning.

[liverbird!!]

5 countries have voted on Lisbon. Ireland, Spain, Luxumberg, Holland and France have all voted and overall more people have said Yes than No.

Why do people think every country in the EU is out to screw poor little Ireland? Lets be honest here, if Germany or France for example wanted to screws us over, it would hardly be worth their while, just a drop in the ocean to them.


Anyone know why this poll is closed by the way?

Time to get your fscts right Bobby, and your above post proves that you are also wrong.

[JOE]

You have took it upon yourself to decide that I haven't read the treaty, not very many people have read it as it would take months to get your head around it, FACT! Don't try tell me that you have, as most politicians haven't even bothered their bol lox reading it. I've read what I think I needed too and it's my opinion!
You don't have to agree and clearly don't. At the end of all this if people truely believe this is right for the country it will be FACT. But they shod never try take people as gob-shit es and not try backmail them saying we'll be European outcasts if this is not passed. If we vote no, the. The treaty in itself is dead in the water as it should have been last time FACT!

Yes i have...At undergraduate level in UCD i studied European law as part of my law degree and it was essential reading...it was a requirement on my law postgrad and further it was examined by the law society when i took their exams...

[Rover 609]

Yes i have...At undergraduate level in UCD i studied European law as part of my law degree and it was essential reading...it was a requirement on my law postgrad and further it was examined by the law society when i took their exams...

I'm swerving this thread after reading that.

[liverbird!!]

Yes i have...At undergraduate level in UCD i studied European law as part of my law degree and it was essential reading...it was a requirement on my law postgrad and further it was examined by the law society when i took their exams...

Well if you did read it all, then i appologise for the above comment.

[liverbird!!]

I'm swerving this thread after reading that.

:D:D

[JOE]

I'm swerving this thread after reading that.

??

[D-Red]

Yes i have...At undergraduate level in UCD i studied European law as part of my law degree and it was essential reading...it was a requirement on my law postgrad and further it was examined by the law society when i took their exams...

I studied a similar line of thought through DCU, and then through a very basic programme as part of a Soc/Soc/pol degree in trinity years later.

Maybe you were a better student than I was (likely in fairness) but why are we geting into a situation where the peacock with the nicest feathers wins the argument?

I've read back through this thread. Some "strange" posts, admittedly, but each of them will amount to a vote, like it or not.

Some extremely intelligent posts too, and also some very distasteful "scorn" poured on other people's posts. The most accurate summary I've seen so far has been from Keenfornando.

Like it or not, more points have been lost than gained through this thread in terms of the Yes vote. You must realsie that surely?

[ronnie10]

Yes i have...At undergraduate level in UCD i studied European law as part of my law degree and it was essential reading...it was a requirement on my law postgrad and further it was examined by the law society when i took their exams...

Would you kindly explain it briefly to use then, the pros and cons of it?

[denashpot]

Voted No the first time. 50/50 this time. The campaign of the NO vote imo opinion is a lot more convincing than the YES vote (not saying everthing they say is true). Example been the NO vote posting things like the minimum wage is this...., something about the Turks been allowed in, voting rights in the EU itself, laws, neturality and abortion will sway people i think. All the YES vote has up around the city is "We need europe", shite imo.

[denashpot]

Would you kindly explain it briefly to use then, the pros and cons of it?

+1

[bobby benitez]

Time to get your fscts right Bobby, and your above post proves that you are also wrong.

http://constitution-europeenne.info/special/resultats_luxembourgan.pdf


On Sunday 10th July, Luxembourg became the thirteenth Member State (and the third founder State of the Union) to ratify the treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe by voting 56.52% in favour of the text. 43.48% of the electorate voted against. Luxembourg therefore became the second country to ratify the European Constitution by referendum after Spain that approved the text by a wide majority on 20th February last (76.73% “yes”). On 29th May the French rejected the treaty (54.67% “no”) and the Dutch on 1st June (61.6% “no”).

[JOE]

I studied a similar line of thought through DCU, and then through a very basic programme as part of a Soc/Soc/pol degree in trinity years later.

Maybe you were a better student than I was (likely in fairness) but why are we geting into a situation where the peacock with the nicest feathers wins the argument?

I've read back through this thread. Some "strange" posts, admittedly, but each of them will amount to a vote, like it or not.

Some extremely intelligent posts too, and also some very distasteful "scorn" poured on other people's posts. The most accurate summary I've seen so far has been from Keenfornando.

Like it or not, more points have been lost than gained through this thread in terms of the Yes vote. You must realsie that surely?

Haha,:p re the peacock...

Sure, though sometimes it's very difficult not to post (on my part) when i see fallacies that are ever present on this thread...but to be honest, regardless of
how we debate the merits or cons of the treaty, i don't think any of us are going to change the others' mind...it's fruitless, but hey, that's the internet for you...here's a very applicable picture:
http://www.craphound.com/images/xkcdwrongoninternet.jpg

[marathonman]

Anyone know why this poll is closed by the way?

More than likely just closed after a set time. Re-opened, so you can now vote.

[Gerry]

Isn't this just one of the delusions of democracy though? People are entitled to have their say but many often let their mind and ego get in the way of something as simple as a vote which then turns into a dispute and sometimes violence. I am all for a good debate but these days there always seem to be people that let simple little things (and a yes no vote is the simplest thing there is) bring out the worst in themselves.


Spot on James, Most threads on polotics on this site have been removed because people could not have a discussion without calling each other ****s, hopefully this one does not go the same way !

[D-Red]

[QUOTE=JOE;230872]Haha,:p re the peacock...

Sure, though sometimes it's very difficult not to post (on my part) when i see fallacies that are ever present on this thread...but to be honest, regardless of
how we debate the merits or cons of the treaty, i don't think any of us are going to change the others' mind...it's fruitless, but hey, that's the internet for you...here's a very applicable picture:
[QUOTE]

Exactly. I've never even mentioned my loyalties on this thread, and why would I. You talk about the falacies on this thread. Well they're only fallacies in your opinion.

I refrained from giving my true views because I've seen threads like this descend into hatred. But I take a passing interest. I like the way Azzkikr made his point briefly, and that was that. I've less respect for the people who are clearly trying to influence opinion. And I've even less respect for those who have taken the mickey out of the opinions of others.

PS That Peacock comment was off the cuff and I am copyright protecting that!

[redeagle]

Usually its me fighting with people about these issues...I am standing well clear.

[JOE]

Usually its me fighting with people about these issues...I am standing well clear.

Haha...not a bad move at all...remember the first thread on Lisbon? Then it was the infamous Joskster encapsulated in the debate...

[D-Red]

Usually its me fighting with people about these issues...I am standing well clear.

haha, yeah you were noticeable by your abscence alright!!

Our good friend Reder would have been dishing out some spankings on this thread too!

[liverbird!!]

(and a yes /no vote is the simplest thing there is)

Thats the exact problem with all this debate, if we are to believe the government on this treaty, and why did they and other members not want us to know about certain aspects of this treaty until the irish vote last time? it blew up in their face as they thought little old ireland would do anything to keep in with EU procedures! why wasnt it explained properly or correctly to the irish people. And why did they try and get this through without considering the consequences a no vote would create in europe?? they didnt even contemplate this happening thats what gets me!

I have taken this into consideration from last referendum and just don't believe a word, i could be very wrong and if so i'll hold my hands up to it.

but for them to ignore the vote of the Irish people last time, just makes a mockery of democracy in this country and the european union in my opinion.

I'm all for change in this world, but only when its done and acted out correctly, but to try the above and expect people to accept it! is just wrong.

[Paddy Kelly]

My head is telling me to vote Yes, and my heart is telling me to vote No. Either way it doesn't matter because I won't be able to vote due to being away on holidays

[James]

(and a yes /no vote is the simplest thing there is)

Thats the exact problem with all this debate, if we are to believe the government on this treaty, and why did they and other members not want us to know about certain aspects of this treaty until the irish vote last time? it blew up in their face as they thought little old ireland would do anything to keep in with EU procedures! why wasnt it explained properly or correctly to the irish people. And why did they try and get this through without considering the consequences a no vote would create in europe?? they didnt even contemplate this happening thats what gets me!

I have taken this into consideration from last referendum and just don't believe a word, i could be very wrong and if so i'll hold my hands up to it.

but for them to ignore the vote of the Irish people last time, just makes a mockery of democracy in this country and the european union in my opinion.

I'm all for change in this world, but only when its done and acted out correctly, but to try the above and expect people to accept it! is just wrong.

It seems that you know which way you are going to vote so it is a simple choice. You have done your homework and you are now going to follow your instinct and cast your vote. If other people choose not to do their homework and get the insight you have then that is not your problem. If the government has been lazy, again it is not your problem but as you are aware of the situation you can do something about it.

I have no interest in getting into a debate with either side of the treaty I only have an interest in the way sides come into existance. Ego is the cause of most of it and it is not needed. Make your mind up, cast your vote and then forget about it........its that simple!! Anything in between will just lead to suffering.

[Dub13]

There is going to be a good debate on Today FM at 17:00 this evening,its on the last word and has Michael O'Leary,Joe Higgins and Declan Ganley among others.Should make good radio.

[liverbird!!]

There is going to be a good debate on Today FM at 17:00 this evening,its on the last word and has Michael O'Leary,Joe Higgins and Declan Ganley among others.Should make good radio.

Will be listening, thanks for heads up Paul!

[Dub13]

Will be listening, thanks for heads up Paul!


As I said it should make for great radio,and it will not be a rushed job I hear its going on ontill 18:30.O'Leary,Higgins and Ganley are 3 of the best speakers in Ireland you have to give the last word credit for getting a line up like that.

[Benbecul97]

As I said it should make for great radio,and it will not be a rushed job I hear its going on ontill 18:30.O'Leary,Higgins and Ganley are 3 of the best speakers in Ireland you have to give the last word credit for getting a line up like that.

I think the lineup also includes Michael Martin and Patricia McKenna.

[liverbird!!]

As I said it should make for great radio,and it will not be a rushed job I hear its going on ontill 18:30.O'Leary,Higgins and Ganley are 3 of the best speakers in Ireland you have to give the last word credit for getting a line up like that.

Indeed! great lineup. Hopefully this will clear up my doubts and many around the country!

[Anfield Old Boys]

There is going to be a good debate on Today FM at 17:00 this evening,its on the last word and has Michael O'Leary,Joe Higgins and Declan Ganley among others.Should make good radio.

That should be good but also O'Leary and Ganley are going head to head on Primetime on RTE1 tonight, really looking forward to that one...

[Paul]

Sort of an undecided myself but i'd say after listening to Ganley i'm be a fully fledged YES :D

[Jockser]

Haha...not a bad move at all...remember the first thread on Lisbon? Then it was the infamous Joskster encapsulated in the debate... im infamous now?? :D ....

[BretHart]

What was everyones opinion on the Ganley O Leary debate?, I think it's recorded here so I might watch it....everyone i know that has seen it told me O'Leary came off as a complete asshole which i was surprised at as one of the guys that told me that used to go on about how great O'Leary was.

[JOE]

im infamous now?? :D ....

:D:p

[rev]

Just got this email from a colleague:

On Friday we will again be asked if we do or do not approve of the 28th amendment to the constitution. We are NOT being asked anything about EU membership as some people want you to believe. This is what this amendment would do:

Reasons for a NO Vote. Lisbon creates an unelected EU president. Tony Blair is set to be this EU president. This is the man that agreed to go into an illegal war based on a lie. This war has killed over 600,000 people so far. The treaty would lead to further militarization of the EU. (Art. 42.7).

Your current constitutional rights would be gone under lisbon. Art. 6 means The European Court of Justice would decide what your rights are under lisbon.
Protect Your Rights & Irish Law by voting NO.
Art. 48 makes it a self-amending treaty. EU policy areas can shift from unanimity to qualifed majority voting without the need for further treaties or referendums.
These are like signing a blank cheque.

Since we said NO last year, investment & exports went up, while Spain has seen 4 million people unemployed after they agreed to lisbon.
What this proves is that lisbon has no impact whatsoever on jobs or the economy. It's not an economic treaty at all. To say otherwise is just lying. The opposite is more likely as it is these very policies that have us where we are.

The so called 'guarantees' are meaningless, they guarantee nothing and are not legally binding as they are not protocols in the treaty itself. In 1992 when Denmark voted No to the Maastricht Treaty they got 4 opt-outs, one of which allowed Denmark to retain control over who can and cannot live there. However, last year, the highly-politicised European Court of Justice ruled that retaining that level of immigration control was 'incompatible' with EU Directives and removed the opt-out that the Danes thought they had! The same thing can happen to Ireland.

What is the point in having a commissioner if we can only 'suggest' who this person is under lisbon? Art. 214 obolishes our right to propose and decide who Ireland's commissioner is.

The Lisbon Treaty will allow the EU to interfere in Irish tax affairs and eliminate Ireland's low corporate tax rate, the only real competitive advantage we have left. (The CCCTB proposal - common consolidated corporate tax base). Art. 113 also gives the EU exclusive power over foreign direct investment.

The Irish Fishermen's Organisation can tell you that 40% of EU fish comes from Ireland's Waters, but we only get 5% of the Catch - €200 Billion of Irish fish taken by foreign trawlers. They have robbed Ireland of a lucrative fishing industry.
We import fish caught in Irish waters, processed on the continent, and sold back to Ireland!
Lisbon is a massive threat to rural Ireland - Farming is next.

The Wall Street Journal Europe Editorial says Minister Lenihan is “peddling phantom terrors to scare the Irish people into voting Yes” and that “Ireland has no reason to fear the consequences of a No vote on Lisbon”. Ireland will still be full members of the European Union if we Vote NO. A NO Vote will once again be cheered around Europe. 95% of Europeans don't want the Lisbon Treaty because of the transfer of power and the attack on national sovereignty. It has already been rejected 3 times. (Dutch, French & Irish).

ROBERT BALLAGH in The Irish Times 22/09/09:

Ireland's national sovereignty under threat

If Lisbon is ratified Irish democracy and Irish sovereignty will be irreparably damaged, writes ROBERT BALLAGH.

Even the mildly curious must wonder what it is about the Lisbon Treaty that causes the European establishment to lose all sense of proportion in its frantic efforts to keep this unloved treaty alive.
I, for one, am unable to detect any adequate explanation in much of the old guff we heard during the last campaign about a “better Europe” or a “more efficient Europe”.
In truth, none of this stuff can account for their readiness to set aside all legal and democratic constraints in their ruthless defence of this treaty. No, I believe there must be an alternative explanation.

During the course of the last referendum campaign the phrase “an unprecedented grab for power” surfaced a few times as a description of the Lisbon Treaty, but, unfortunately, at the time, no one really developed this proposition.
Nonetheless, I believe that it provides us with a hint as to why the European elites are so determined to force through this treaty, come what may.
One argument frequently raised by some on the Yes side suggests that the Lisbon Treaty is “no big deal”, that it is simply a gathering together of previous treaties and, as a consequence, represents nothing more than a modest reform package.
I’m afraid nothing could be further from the truth.

Make no mistake about it, the Lisbon Treaty is a truly radical, even revolutionary, document.
To understand this one needs to appreciate that what we call the European Union today is not a state. It is not even a legal or corporate entity in its own right.
However, if Lisbon is ratified all this will change. In strictly legal terms, an entirely new European Union will be established. This will be a union in the constitutional form of a European federal state.
The current European Union will cease to exist and will be replaced by this legally new European Union which will be separate from and superior to its member states, just as the USA is separate from and superior to say, Kansas or Louisiana.

By transforming the legal character of the union, the Lisbon Treaty will transform the meaning of union citizenship.
Presently, each and every one of us is, first and foremost, a citizen of our own country, in our case Ireland, and in strictly legal terms, any individual relationship with the EU amounts to no more than having a purple cover on our passport.
However, if Lisbon is ratified, all this will change. Under the treaty regulations, every Irish person will become, firstly, a citizen of the European Union and secondly an Irish citizen.

This is new and represents a radical shift in the relationship between the individual citizen and the European Union.
For example, the duty of obedience to the union’s laws and loyalty to the union’s institutions attaching to this citizenship will be superior to those attaching to the citizenship of one’s own country, and even though member states will retain their own national constitutions, these will be subordinate to the new union treaty regulations.
As such they will no longer be constitutions of sovereign states in their own right, but instead, will resemble, the constitutions of various states in the USA, which, of course, are subordinate to the federal US constitution.

Make no mistake about it, if the Lisbon Treaty is ratified, then, a sovereign independent Irish nation will cease to exist.

The dream of “the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies” was what fuelled the centuries of struggle carried out by Theobold Wolfe Tone, Robert Emmet, Patrick Pearse and James Connolly.
The loss of national sovereignty implicit in the Lisbon Treaty will represent nothing less than a renunciation of those centuries of struggle.

Let us not forget all those men who died attempting to wrest our country from an unaccountable government whom had little or no regard for the lives of the men and women on this Island.

Our right to vote is because of their sacrifice.
Anyone who votes NO to Lisbon can do so in the full knowledge that they will be supporting the democratic majority of people that have been allowed to vote. A NO vote supports democracy and a yes vote will circumvent it.

[RedRuairi]

Don't know if this has been mentioned earlier in the Thread but basically we can vote "yes" and Lisbon might still not be implemented. The UK still has to vote next year so if there is a "no" vote there, Lisbon doesn't get passed. They are basically footing the responsibility to us because if we vote "no" then there is no need from them to look like the country that shoot Lisbon down.....

I'm undecided myself but tending towards a "no" vote

[Raven136]

Don't know if this has been mentioned earlier in the Thread but basically we can vote "yes" and Lisbon might still not be implemented. The UK still has to vote next year so if there is a "no" vote there, Lisbon doesn't get passed. They are basically footing the responsibility to us because if we vote "no" then there is no need from them to look like the country that shoot Lisbon down.....

I'm undecided myself but tending towards a "no" vote

Will the labour party not just pass this in parliment and only if we vote no and its next year before a new vote is held.Then the tories will be in and a referendum will be held in the uk.I could be wrong.

[sultana]

Will the labour party not just pass this in parliment and only if we vote no and its next year before a new vote is held.Then the tories will be in and a referendum will be held in the uk.I could be wrong.

That's exactly right.

I have also studied the treaty at undergraduate and postgraduate level in university. I hope for a yes vote because the treaty will make positive changes for the community as a whole and for Ireland.

One thing I would say is that IF you don't have a clue then educate yourself fast because it's very important...and If you still don't have a clue then PLEASE DON'T VOTE NO FOR THE SAKE OF IT.

Things are going to change...whether we vote YES or NO. Voting No is not a vote for things to stay the same.

[Liverpool-law]

Things are going to change...whether we vote YES or NO. Voting No is not a vote for things to stay the same.

Well said and it's the most annoying excuse used by the NO vote. No is not a default button, it's a vote. If you know why you're voting no fine but don't vote on something as important as this for the sake of it. Read up on it on the independent information sites, there are plenty lies being posted out there.

[bobby benitez]

From IBEC:

5 reasons to vote Yes


Put Ireland First
The decision we make on Friday will have repercussions for many years to come. A Yes vote will send a positive signal to our European and international partners that Ireland wants to play a constructive role in the development of a more democratic, transparent and efficient EU. It will represent a small but important step on the road to economic recovery. A No vote will have significant negative consequences not only for Ireland, but for Europe.


Job Creation.
The people who create jobs believe a Yes vote is important. Every leading business person wants a Yes vote. Every Chamber of Commerce, every agricultural co-op, every trade association, every exporter, every multinational based in Ireland is calling for a Yes vote. Other major groups including the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, SIPTU and all the leading Irish trade unions are all supporting a Yes vote. Every leading economist believes a Yes vote is best. The Universities and Institutes of Technology have called for a Yes vote. They all know the decision we make is of great national importance.

Bin the Lies
Don’t believe the lies. The National Minimum Wage cannot be reduced to €1.84. Conscription, abortion, euthanasia cannot be imposed on us. Our neutrality is not under threat. Europe is the greatest peace project in history; it has brought 27 nations together to work in peace and cooperation. It is a great force for peace in the world and the biggest contributor of development aid. Irish people had genuine concerns when they rejected the Lisbon Treaty in June 2008.The other 26 member states listened to our concerns and have given us legally binding guarantees in those areas of concern to Irish people. The EU has also agreed that if the Lisbon Treaty is ratified we will keep a Commissioner. We have a new deal.


A great supporter of Ireland
Europe is a great supporter and friend of Ireland. For 36 years we have received significant transfer payments from our partners in the European Union. To date Ireland has received over €70 billion via the Common Agriculture Policy, the Social, Regional and Structural Funds and through the European Investment Bank. With that money we built roads, schools, colleges, training centres, a modern telecommunications system, and we modernised agriculture. While we represent 1% of the EU economy we will receive 15% of the European Central Bank Emergency Fund this year to deal with the financial crisis - an injection of approximately €120 billion into our system.

Don’t Risk the Future
There can be no complacency. While the polls are pointing to a Yes vote the result will depend on turnout. US President Barack Obama said “decisions are made by those who turn up”. Make sure you vote. Contact your family, friends, neighbours, colleagues at work. Call on them, phone them, send texts and emails. The risk of a No is too great. Vote Yes.

[GaryMc]

wertyu is the man to consult on Lisbon. He was giving it socks on the flight back from Liverpool last Saturday night:D

[Raven136]

This has been one of the better political threads on IK.Usually someone ends up being called a scumbag or terrorist in the previous ones.IMO both arguments have their merit but feel the No side have put their's across better and seem less patronising.
The yes side have said that we are voting for jobs,for the economy etc,yet this isnt an economic treaty.We are not voting to leave the EU,so would everyone quit that.
The Bullshit from Coir has been crazy and pure lies and RSF not much better.
IMO it will be fairly close come polling day and if the No's win the day i dont want to hear that people didnt know what they were voting on or were angry etc,people hate to be talked down to by Pat Cox/Michael O leary type's.

[SUPERFAN]

Things are going to change...whether we vote YES or NO.
may as well vote no so....

[SUPERFAN]

there are plenty lies being posted out there.

yeah,by both the yes and the no side.....

[denashpot]

How is it going to create more jobs???? That's the part i cant understand?

The no vote campaign is a lot more convincing imo.

[SUPERFAN]

How is it going to create more jobs???? That's the part i cant understand?

The no vote campaign is a lot more convincing imo.

the recession has been a godsend to the yes brigade,people are sh1t scared of the reprocussions of voting no.

[RedWally]

Will be interesting to see how our vote above compares with the national result. It's currently 50% - YES and 32%- NO here.

[denashpot]

the recession has been a godsend to the yes brigade,people are sh1t scared of the reprocussions of voting no.

The yes vote have fcuk all to offer people so. I'm voting NO! Fcuk FF the useless cnuts.

[Benbecul97]

Will be interesting to see how our vote above compares with the national result. It's currently 50% - YES and 32%- NO here.

I think the opinion polls are similiar to our poll here

[RedWally]

The yes vote have fcuk all to offer people so. I'm voting NO! Fcuk FF the useless cnuts.

Maybe listen to the opinion of the opposition in Government so which is the main key for me.

[bobby benitez]

Will be interesting to see how our vote above compares with the national result. It's currently 50% - YES and 32%- NO here.

57% to 43% when you take out the undecided. I think it will be closer than that in reality.

[sultana]

Voted No the first time. 50/50 this time. The campaign of the NO vote imo opinion is a lot more convincing than the YES vote (not saying everthing they say is true). Example been the NO vote posting things like the minimum wage is this...., something about the Turks been allowed in, voting rights in the EU itself, laws, neturality and abortion will sway people i think. All the YES vote has up around the city is "We need europe", shite imo.

Im confused are you saying any of those points or true? It's not difficult to be hard hitting if you tell complete lies.

The yes vote have fcuk all to offer people so. I'm voting NO! Fcuk FF the useless cnuts.

Good man. Think what's the best thing for the country not your ridiculous ideas about punishing the government.

It's got NOTHING to do with Fianna Fail! :rolleyes:

Come back with 1 credible argument for voting no.

[Juan]

Come back with 1 credible argument for voting no.[/QUOTE]

Heres one...the lisbon treaty will give primacy to the EU court of justice,over the irish supreme court,when it comes to defence and military policies.

[liverbird!!]

Come back with 1 credible argument for voting no.

Heres one...the lisbon treaty will give primacy to the EU court of justice,over the irish supreme court,when it comes to defence and military policies.[/QUOTE]

Too name but a few!

Don't get caught up in the argument that this will create jobs and end recession, these are two of the bullshi t lies the yes vote are spinning
trying to scrae the irish public, FACT!

[Venom1983]

It is absolutely vital that the yes vote wins out this time in terms of the economis prospects of the country.

Large multinational companies have set up in this country because of our close links to the EU if we pull away from the EU they will pull away from us and jobs probably thousands of jobs will be lost.

I know for a fact that large deals have been put on hold while investors wait of the outcome of this referendum, while some have just taken there business elsewhere rather than wait on the outcome. It might not be clear but the country has been in limbo ever since the no vote prevailed as the commercial world waited to see how we reacted and i fear a no vote this time will an absolute disaster for the country economically. Any recovery from the recession we are in will be slowed down by years

So i say to you all now, we are all pissed off with the government and the politicians but this referendum is not about them so your vote should not be a seen as a chance to stick 2 fingers up to the establishment because if we do that again as a country it'll be all of us who'll be paying for it.

[Benbecul97]

As is happening in the media today - any chance of a moratorium on this thread too?! ;)

[RedWally]

Enda Kenny pleaded for a YES vote while interviewed a while back. He said now is not the time to vote against the Govt...the day will come soon for that also.

I'm not too clued in on what Lisbon means but if the Govt and the opposition are both requesting the same vote then that's good enough for me.

[Venom1983]

Heres one...the lisbon treaty will give primacy to the EU court of justice,over the irish supreme court,when it comes to defence and military policies.

Too name but a few!

Don't get caught up in the argument that this will create jobs and end recession, these are two of the bullshi t lies the yes vote are spinning
trying to scrae the irish public, FACT![/QUOTE]


Im sorry but these are not lies it's a fact that alot of the biggest investors into ireland will consider their options if a no vote is passed

It'll be a disaster

As for those fearing our neutrality being lossed, assurances have been given that this is not the case

If you want to talk about propaganda im beginning to think Goebbels is heading the no campaign

I see posters with tanks on them or heads of politicians under the banner of RECESSION these things have nothing to do with the Lisbon treaty but the NO campaign have used them as a tool to game an advantage

I want to see No campaign posters focussed on the actual facts not scaremongering

[serpheus]

I have read through this thread for the first time and went from a yes to a no back to a yes then to a no and then to a yes:) If only it was something simple and easy to understand there would be no problem in making my decision.

[liverbird!!]

Too name but a few!

Don't get caught up in the argument that this will create jobs and end recession, these are two of the bullshi t lies the yes vote are spinning
trying to scrae the irish public, FACT!


Im sorry but these are not lies it's a fact that alot of the biggest investors into ireland will consider their options if a no vote is passed

It'll be a disaster

As for those fearing our neutrality being lossed, assurances have been given that this is not the case

If you want to talk about propaganda im beginning to think Goebbels is heading the no campaign

I see posters with tanks on them or heads of politicians under the banner of RECESSION these things have nothing to do with the Lisbon treaty but the NO campaign have used them as a tool to game an advantage

I want to see No campaign posters focussed on the actual facts not scaremongering[/QUOTE]

Am i missing something here! Was it not the Yes campaign that has brought this recession talk and Jobs creation into this debate??? Last time around did we hear any of this talk?? i think not. Both sides are telling lies about this treaty and its up to people to decide with whom they will side.

Big business will invest in this country as long as its profitable for them to do so, and this will not change by voting Yes or No, to say that it will is pure lies and since the last vote has it stopped?? No.

[Venom1983]

I can tell you for a fact as i work in the sector and a number of our clients are large multinationals that the feedback we are getting from those clients is that they have stalled on deals til the outcome of the Lisbon treaty, a number of them can't believe whats going on or why a no vote has even been contemplated, some have just moved there business elsewhere in the meantime

We are a country of 4 million ppl not a massive market by any stretch of the imagination its the european mkt which entices investment in here along with our low tax rates

Wage costs etc are very high, that is why countries such as poland have now become viable alternatives please see Dell leaving limerick as an example of this, if we alienate ourselves from europe this will send out the absolute wrong message to the global investment community

Look at the end of the day we are a democracy and one man's opinion is just as important as the next and if you choose to vote no that is your entitlement however if any of you out there feel that a no vote will have no affect on our already brittle economy i can give an informed view that this is not the case

The flipside of this is that a YES vote does undoubtly mean more jobs etc. This is not a lie from the Yes Side it is an economic fact.

[D7Hooper]

Im sorry but these are not lies it's a fact that alot of the biggest investors into ireland will consider their options if a no vote is passed

It'll be a disaster

As for those fearing our neutrality being lossed, assurances have been given that this is not the case

If you want to talk about propaganda im beginning to think Goebbels is heading the no campaign

I see posters with tanks on them or heads of politicians under the banner of RECESSION these things have nothing to do with the Lisbon treaty but the NO campaign have used them as a tool to game an advantage

I want to see No campaign posters focussed on the actual facts not scaremongering[/QUOTE]

Are you trying to say that the yes side haven't done the exact same thing ? All these posters with road signs pointing to recovery if a yes vote prevails, imo is a complete lie. There is absolutly nothting in this treaty pertaining to the creation or retention of jobs and services in this country, and there are no "big companies" waiting in the wings to ride to our rescue if the yes side wins.
Any potential investor in Ireland would have already been put off by the disgraceful greed and mis-management of our banks and the ineptitude of our government in bringing no-one to book over their criminal behaviour and their insistence of bankrupting this nation for generations to help bail out their galway races tent buddies.
I know this vote is not about our disgraced and inept government but I voted no the last time and will do so again and I am highly pissed off that I have to vote again anyway.
No-one on here or anywhere can really say they understand all the possible implications of a yes or a no vote. There are so many sub-clauses and add-ons in this treaty that the people who originally draughted it have no idea whats in it anymore ffs.
No-one I believe, wants us out of the EU, but we all want a fair crack in any preposed new Europe and in my opinion this treaty undermines our standing .

[Venom1983]

All these posters with road signs pointing to recovery if a yes vote prevails, imo is a complete lie

In my opinion a recovery is only possible if a yes vote prevails, my reason for this is outlined above

[Juan]

I can tell you for a fact as i work in the sector and a number of our clients are large multinationals that the feedback we are getting from those clients is that they have stalled on deals til the outcome of the Lisbon treaty, a number of them can't believe whats going on or why a no vote has even been contemplated, some have just moved there business elsewhere in the meantime

We are a country of 4 million ppl not a massive market by any stretch of the imagination its the european mkt which entices investment in here along with our low tax rates

Wage costs etc are very high, that is why countries such as poland have now become viable alternatives please see Dell leaving limerick as an example of this, if we alienate ourselves from europe this will send out the absolute wrong message to the global investment community

Look at the end of the day we are a democracy and one man's opinion is just as important as the next and if you choose to vote no that is your entitlement however if any of you out there feel that a no vote will have no affect on our already brittle economy i can give an informed view that this is not the case

The flipside of this is that a YES vote does undoubtly mean more jobs etc. This is not a lie from the Yes Side it is an economic fact.

You say we are a democracy mate..yet the government saw fit to cancel it,after the last vote,for so called Guarantees that are not legally binding.

The 700 workers who lost their jobs in Waterford Crystal, were told by Minister martin cullen,that the government could not intervene to save the company....because it was against EU rules on the free market.

Also what really troubles me,is that nearly 500 million voters have no vote on this lisbon treaty. why? because lisbon would be rejected out of hand,if the people of europe were given a chance to vote.

[liverbird!!]

I can tell you for a fact as i work in the sector and a number of our clients are large multinationals that the feedback we are getting from those clients is that they have stalled on deals til the outcome of the Lisbon treaty, a number of them can't believe whats going on or why a no vote has even been contemplated, some have just moved there business elsewhere in the meantime

We are a country of 4 million ppl not a massive market by any stretch of the imagination its the european mkt which entices investment in here along with our low tax rates
Wage costs etc are very high, that is why countries such as poland have now become viable alternatives please see Dell leaving limerick as an example of this, if we alienate ourselves from europe this will send out the absolute wrong message to the global investment community

Look at the end of the day we are a democracy and one man's opinion is just as important as the next and if you choose to vote no that is your entitlement however if any of you out there feel that a no vote will have no affect on our already brittle economy i can give an informed view that this is not the case

The flipside of this is that a YES vote does undoubtly mean more jobs etc. This is not a lie from the Yes Side it is an economic fact.

The reason Dell have moved out of this country is the expense of operating in this country, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the treaty, and the reason most companies are holding off investing here, if any. Is because the Economic situation in the country due to the governments poor running of the country and their big builder buddies running it into the ground!! Also absolutely nothing to do with this treaty, This is the YES and its scare tactics again, am not having ago, but this is the spin being told by the yes side and nothing not a word was said about any of this last time round! and its their way of trying to bully irish people to vote Yes. In the end Irish people as a whole, have changed and they will vote the way they want and all this debate will be forgotten about!!!

[diceyreilly]

Enda Kenny pleaded for a YES vote while interviewed a while back. He said now is not the time to vote against the Govt...the day will come soon for that also.

I'm not too clued in on what Lisbon means but if the Govt and the opposition are both requesting the same vote then that's good enough for me.

That's the theory i'm going on too....

[Venom1983]

Lads all i can say is that the firm i work with have clients telling us Lisbon is the reason they aren't investing and that alot of them are holding fire til they see if a yes vote passes.

It's not me guessing that lisbon is the reason, it's the investors themselves telling us

I've no political allegiances or any love for the government, im just telling you what i know to be a fact so that the people on here might be able to make a more informed decision

At the end of the day whatever way you vote is up to you i just hope for the good of the economy that yes passes

[MR KING KENNY]

oh im so confused, yes or no, i just think its bull shit we have to vote again, if its so important why did the goverment not give a toss the last time? its a joke. I just cant believe a word that comes from that **** cowen and if a no vote will take him and FF out of a job i would love it, but im sure that is not the best thing for Ireland, I blame all this confusion on cowen and FF, noone can trust these fat cats that live like kings on our hard earned money.

[Carlsburger]

I have looked at both sides of the argument and will be voting YES. Venom is correct when he says that it is essential that the treaty is passed for economic recovery. If we did not have the support that we currently have (from the ECB, Germany, France, etc.) when the banking system crashed we would be fcuked - like Iceland is now.

Don't fool yourself if you think that voting no is a vote against the current government, they could be gone by christmas.

The no campaign is being support by far right euro-skeptics from England (through Declan Ganley) and by the far-left here in Ireland (SF and Joe Higgins). Extreme parties are the fXXXers that stars wars !!!!! Is that good enough for you to vote YES.

[Liverpool-law]

Lads you're all in breach of the broadcast moratorium today ;)

Get your asses out and vote tomorrow and let's see what happens.

[Fowler's God]

IMO i think the likes of Michael O'Leary and Intel have some neck coming out on TV and with posters claiming a yes vote is good for the country.

The fact that one is dying to get onside with the EU Comission so he can eventually buy Aer Lingus because at the moment due to competition rules he can't and the other is in a sector where jobs are at a premium and are laying off people at the same time due to the finanical constraints that they find themselves in America at the moment.

EU = American Capitalism = ECB and EU Parliament ruling all of us. Our constitution will worth **** all if this treaty is passed just like the American constitution is being ripped apart without their own people voting on some issues. Our Government passed a number laws last year without the majority of our population actually knowing that is effecting us as we speak.

Our intelligence is called into question because we have to vote again. We gave the government, Sarkozy and his cronies the elbow the last time and this time if we do vote no they can either take our vote or **** off back to the drawing table.

[liverbird!!]

I have looked at both sides of the argument and will be voting YES. Venom is correct when he says that it is essential that the treaty is passed for economic recovery. If we did not have the support that we currently have (from the ECB, Germany, France, etc.) when the banking system crashed we would be fcuked - like Iceland is now.
Don't fool yourself if you think that voting no is a vote against the current government, they could be gone by christmas.

The no campaign is being support by far right euro-skeptics from England (through Declan Ganley) and by the far-left here in Ireland (SF and Joe Higgins). Extreme parties are the fXXXers that stars wars !!!!! Is that good enough for you to vote YES.

Where in the treaty does it state that our economic recovery will depend on this treaty being passed, this is typical reply to scare tactics from yes side! the above statement is just untrue!

Please refrain from using the economy and recession as your argument for a YES vote as it has nothing to do with it!

[Fowler's God]

The 700 workers who lost their jobs in Waterford Crystal, were told by Minister martin cullen,that the government could not intervene to save the company....because it was against EU rules on the free market


This should be an eye opener alone why this treaty should be rejected more control equals more of this control on our people. I know living down here in Waterford, there is a lot of anger and that in Italics says it all. Waterford Crystal is an Ireland institution much like Guinness and our own Government couldn't step in due to European intervention what does that say for any other Irish owned and non-Irish owned companies who could get into trouble.

[bryanod]

This should be an eye opener alone why this treaty should be rejected more control equals more of this control on our people. I know living down here in Waterford, there is a lot of anger and that in Italics says it all. Waterford Crystal is an Ireland institution much like Guinness and our own Government couldn't step in due to European intervention what does that say for any other Irish owned and non-Irish owned companies who could get into trouble.


And yet if the Government put 100million, when they have no money and woudl have to get eh money from increase taxes/more cutbacks elesewhere, everyone would come out and moan at them putting money into a dying industry (much like the US Car mnufacturers who are bleeding the Gov dry each 6 months it seems) and taking it by cutting back on something else or increasing taxes (which itself leads to further arguing, fingure-pointing and placards outside leinster house).


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/99/Catch22.jpg

[Carlsburger]

And yet if the Government put 100million, when they have no money and woudl have to get eh money from increase taxes/more cutbacks elesewhere, everyone would come out and moan at them putting money into a dying industry (much like the US Car mnufacturers who are bleeding the Gov dry each 6 months it seems) and taking it by cutting back on something else or increasing taxes (which itself leads to further arguing, fingure-pointing and placards outside leinster house).


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/99/Catch22.jpg

+1

[Venom1983]

Please refrain from using the economy and recession as your argument for a YES vote as it has nothing to do with it!

I could not disagree more, it has everything to do with it. A no vote will deal a hammer blow to the irish economy(ive stated the reasons for this above) that is a economic fact and that is the main reason that im in the YES camp

[Paul]

57% to 43% when you take out the undecided. I think it will be closer than that in reality.

I make it 61% V 39% :p

[Juan]

[QUOTE=bryanod;237600]And yet if the Government put 100million, when they have no money and woudl have to get eh money from increase taxes/more cutbacks elesewhere, everyone would come out and moan at them putting money into a dying industry (much like the US Car mnufacturers who are bleeding the Gov dry each 6 months it seems) and taking it by cutting back on something else or increasing taxes (which itself leads to further arguing, fingure-pointing and placards outside leinster house).


Yet the government found sixty thousand times that amount, (60billion) very quickly, to bail out the criminals, that are the bankers and developers.
Now thats a reason to moan.

[Liverpool-law]

It would be in all of Irish society's best interests if the banks went under, wouldn't it?

[Juan]

It would be in all of Irish society's best interests if the banks went under, wouldn't it?

its okay for the irish population to pay for it then?

[Liverpool-law]

I think you'll find that EUROPE has helped bail us out hugely on this, more so than they were obliged to. That's the benefit of strong partnership in Europe. You brought the Bank bailout up actually but as is often pointed out by the No vote, what has that got to do with the Treaty?

[Juan]

I think you'll find that EUROPE has helped bail us out hugely on this, more so than they were obliged to. That's the benefit of strong partnership in Europe. You brought the Bank bailout up actually but as is often pointed out by the No vote, what has that got to do with the Treaty?

Too right i brought it up. These are the same people who are asking us to trust them on this treaty.
Over 60% were against the nama bail out.. but hey..who cares what the public think.Not this government,thats for sure.

[Liverpool-law]

You have a thing about the government, this thread is for the Lisbon Treaty. The opposition, trade unions, employers associations, farmers are all advocating yes, did they set up NAMA. They are different issues, the Treaty is not about the government.

[bryanod]

Too right i brought it up. These are the same people who are asking us to trust them on this treaty.
Over 60% were against the nama bail out.. but hey..who cares what the public think.Not this government,thats for sure.

Neither do I becuase in general the public know **** all and only want whats best for themselves not for everyone in general.

But using the Government as reason to vote No us either plain ignorant or retarded.

[elvis]

Lads I dont see the point in debating and arguing at this late hour, as we all have to vote tomorrow and im sure everyones mind is made up by now, or at least I hope it is,. So if your voting NO then vote NO, and if your voting yes vote yes, and if your not voting, go and vote,. Its all I'll say,. but if you's want to keep debating until tomorrow, by all means continue, but you's wont win any new votes for either side, and im sure you's wont change each others mind,. :)

[Fowler's God]

And yet if the Government put 100million, when they have no money and woudl have to get eh money from increase taxes/more cutbacks elesewhere, everyone would come out and moan at them putting money into a dying industry (much like the US Car mnufacturers who are bleeding the Gov dry each 6 months it seems) and taking it by cutting back on something else or increasing taxes (which itself leads to further arguing, fingure-pointing and placards outside leinster house).


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/99/Catch22.jpg

It is a catch 22 situation I agree but in your example this is the same US Manufacturers who are pestering their own government to get money the federal government who are intertwined within all indusry's we are currently working in. The money that the government currently borrows are from the our version of the Fed in America the ECB and who in turn go to the World Bank where a vicious cycle occurs our country will be controlled by international bankers where we will never get out of the red like most of the countries in the world will be for generations.

It's time people woke up and smelt the coffee, the concorde agreement between the USA, Canada and Mexico is so similar to the Lisbon treaty it makes me sick. We are being run not by the government but corrupt beauacrat international banks which will bleed all of us dry and bring the country to its knees. Corporations or firms don't give a flying **** about us all we are is puppets to them and all they see is the dollar signs. That is why you will see more people in this country over the next 12 months becoming self-employed with their ideas or creations like back in the day before the Celtic Tiger and this materialistic generation where its all want want want.

[Liverpool-law]

It's time people woke up and smelt the coffee, the concorde agreement between the USA, Canada and Mexico is so similar to the Lisbon treaty it makes me sick. We are being run not by the government but corrupt beauacrat international banks which will bleed all of us dry and bring the country to its knees. Corporations or firms don't give a flying **** about you all you are is puppet to them and all they see is the dollar signs. That is why you will see more people in this country over the next 12 months becoming self-employed with their ideas or creations.

I prefer your sisters Jim Corr :o:D:D

[Juan]

Ok, lets leave the total mismanagement, of this country by the present government aside for a moment.
Why are 500 million people in europe,not being given any vote on the lisbon treaty?
Why is the EU scared?
I also feel imo, that irish workers rights will be severly diluted by the lisbon treaty.

[elvis]

I think we are all going to be screwed out of it by the misunderstood and scared public. So we can only hope that it'll be a NO vote,.

[Fowler's God]

Our past should be a good indicator that we don't like be dictated too...no one should dictate to us how our country is run only us the people. The EU have ruined the livelihoods of the fishing industry...

Tomorrow is judgment day for all of us as a country and Europeans.

[Venom1983]

Sorry lads a No vote will be an economic disaster for this country, if it is to happen it'll be a case of "can the last person leaving the country please turn off the lights" because this country will be ****ed

[elvis]

Sorry lads a No vote will be an economic disaster for this country, if it is to happen it'll be a case of "can the last person leaving the country please turn off the lights" because this country will be ****ed

I dont think so,. If everyone else left, Id stay, wouldn't have to pay for anything, so Id have no economic disaster,. :) Theres no basis for saying the country will become an economic disaster after a NO vote,.

[carpe diem]

am voting no just like i did the last time,but this reminds me so much of the nice treaty and have no doubt the government will get their way once again.also michael o leary is campaigning for a yes vote so if i were undecided that alone would tip the the scales for me :)

[liverbird!!]

I dont think so,. If everyone else left, Id stay, wouldn't have to pay for anything, so Id have no economic disaster,. :) Theres no basis for saying the country will become an economic disaster after a NO vote,.

Elvis, your at nothing!
He's not listening, he has been taken in by the lies on how good a yes vote will be for our economy, its bullshi t! As i've said numerous times above THIS ECONOMY C RAP WASN'T MENTIONED ONCE IN THE RUN UP TO LAST REFERENDUM, but now that the builders and bankers have f cuked up this country, it gives the Yes vote an excuse to lie about this treaty and scare them into a yes vote, Simple as, and alot of people have been effected from some of the above posts!!:rolleyes: FACT!!!!

[Fowler's God]

The main point of this treaty is given more control to the EU Parliament and the ECB. Neutrality is all good but the main thing is giving away our liberities that people fought hard for in this country. Our consitution is being ripped apart by EU directives anymore directives and our country will be a shadow of itself.

I am no Sinn-Feiner or Fianna Fail supporter. No party persuasion but an Independent voter who sees this treaty as a anti-democratic referendum when we already gave our answer a 18 months or so ago.

[liverbird!!]

am voting no just like i did the last time,but this reminds me so much of the nice treaty and have no doubt the government will get their way once again.also michael o leary is campaigning for a yes vote so if i were undecided that alone would tip the the scales for me :)

Come to mention it! Did ireland not get a Veto on commisioner in the Nice treaty???? If you check i think we did.

[liverbird!!]

The main point of this treaty is given more control to the EU Parliament and the ECB.

Correct!

And also gives the bigger country more say and power over the little ones! Fact!

[Venom1983]

Lads im not been taking in by any lies ive heard it straight from the horses mouth our clients are telling us this, simple as really.

No conspiracy here

[Fowler's God]

Lads im not been taking in by any lies ive heard it straight from the horses mouth our clients are telling us this, simple as really.

No conspiracy here

Not being a dick or anything like, I need to ask :) But what industry do your clients work in, a multitude or just one industry Venom?

[Venom1983]

All Industries, i work for one of the big four and the feedback we are getting from clients is what im saying

Listen everyone is entitled to their vote and if people want to vote no thats their choice however it is wrong to say the economic arguement is a lie because i can assure you it is not and i say that from a position of no political allegiance at all

[Fowler's God]

All Industries, i work for one of the big four and the feedback we are getting from clients is what im saying

Listen everyone is entitled to their vote and if people want to vote no thats their choice however it is wrong to say the economic arguement is a lie because i can assure you it is not and i say that from a position of no political allegiance at all

You don't work for Sheil Kinnear do ya?

[Venom1983]

Nope but my contract is up at end of october so soon i wont be working for anyone. Thats why as much as anyone il be wanting the economy to pick up as soon as possible i believe a no vote will greatly harm any prospects of that based on what we're hearing from clients

[Venom1983]

I can't wait to get back to talking about football

[robert18]

i think i will vote yes

[serpheus]

Im voting Yes

[Wexman]

This is really heating up in the media over the last few days,so how are you going to vote..?I found the Referendum Commission leaflet on the bed and last night and read it. It's the first time anybody explained anything to me. Shame on the politicians on both sides of the campaign for their failure to communicate cleary with the electorate :mad:. Am going to vote YES after a good deal of thought

[robert18]

the problem with this is you don't know who is telling the truth

[Garrett]

Hi

I'm voting yes, because:

A) I've been pro the EU since the beginning. Basically, I like the concept, the idea of a common currency, no need for visa to travel within EU states etc. I see the EU as similar to the USA, with each state well able to retain it's own individual identidy, yet working togeather to deal with all larger issues. No reason in my mind, why I can't still be Irish, as well as European.

B) I think we need the EU more than the EU needs us. As such, while it can be argued we're "surrendering" some of our rights to decision making about some of our national policies etc, I'm happy enough that we'll get back more than we put into the EU in the long term and as such, it will be better for us all.

C) When all is said and done, I think I trust the European Politicians a bit more than I trust the majority of the Irish ones (exceptions such as Finnian McGrath here btw). Following from this, if the European Politicians wants to see the Lisbon Treaty pushed through, then they probably have good reason for it.


There are specifics in the Lisbon Treaty that I may not be overly comfortable with, but yet I know everyone has to make concessions ... just as we were all asked to do when the Irish Government asked us to agree to amend Articles 2 & 3 of our Constitution a few years back, to help bring peace to Northern Ireland. The bottom line then was it was to achive the greater good and I feel the same now, about the Lisbon Treaty.

People who say things like accepting this will result in a significantly lower minimum wage, will bring in conscripting for the new EU army etc I think are trying to scare us, however, if:

A) the national minimum wage is lowered, then obviously people will only work for it if they can live on it, so perhaps that would mean that our cost of living would drop dramatically also

B) if we want the EU to protect us, if ever we're attacked by som foreign country (never say never here guys and gals !), then why not support our fellow counties within the EU - more in a peace keeping role etc. We don't have a big army, with impressive navy, weaponary etc so we are not going to play a big part in any war the EU ever ended up in and as for conscription, I can't ever see it happening.

[serpheus]

Don't have me voting card, if i bring me passport would that do?

[MrsPepe]

Don't have me voting card, if i bring me passport would that do?

I dont have mine either as I forgot to notify of change of address, but if you ring your local council they will give your number, where to vote and yes bring your passport. I got mine today

[serpheus]

I dont have mine either as I forgot to notify of change of address, but if you ring your local council they will give your number, where to vote and yes bring your passport. I got mine today

Will do, cheers!!

[pepesgloves]

im voting no i couldnt be arsed reading about it but if the goverment want a yes then its good for them and more than likely bad for us.:mad:

[Liverpool-law]

im voting no i couldnt be arsed reading about it but if the goverment want a yes then its good for them and more than likely bad for us.:mad:

https://ssl102.webhosting.optonline.net/roseannstreasures.com/merchantmanager/images/uploads/Eagle%20Claw-PK56TS.jpg

No bites, huh?

[sultana]

Come back with 1 credible argument for voting no.

Heres one...the lisbon treaty will give primacy to the EU court of justice,over the irish supreme court,when it comes to defence and military policies.[/QUOTE]

It's a pity I couldnt log on until now. That's not true. The EU has had primacy on Irish law (in it's areas of competence) since 1963.

HOW could you say it has primacy in areas of defence? I was actually talking to a leading lawyer in European affairs today and he said he couldnt read the BS in the papers every day anymore. With the 'triple lock system' (any forgein mission, troop numbers military spending etc muct be approved by the UN, Governement and the Dail) we could never ever ever be overruled on defence issues. I hate when people vote on a hugely important treaty for the country's future on the basis of a lies.

I will never ever question someones political preferences what party they are for or whether they are left or right wing I don't care. But someone give me a good reason to vote no. Anyways it's probably too late now.

[sultana]

im voting no i couldnt be arsed reading about it but if the goverment want a yes then its good for them and more than likely bad for us.:mad:

You shouldnt be allowed to vote.

Controversial I know but I think I could actually almost stand by that.

[Fowler's God]

Heres one...the lisbon treaty will give primacy to the EU court of justice,over the irish supreme court,when it comes to defence and military policies.

It's a pity I couldnt log on until now. That's not true. The EU has had primacy on Irish law (in it's areas of competence) since 1963.

HOW could you say it has primacy in areas of defence? I was actually talking to a leading lawyer in European affairs today and he said he couldnt read the BS in the papers every day anymore. With the 'triple lock system' (any forgein mission, troop numbers military spending etc muct be approved by the UN, Governement and the Dail) we could never ever ever be overruled on defence issues. I hate when people vote on a hugely important treaty for the country's future on the basis of a lies.

I will never ever question someones political preferences what party they are for or whether they are left or right wing I don't care. But someone give me a good reason to vote no. Anyways it's probably too late now.

The main point of this treaty is given more control to the EU Parliament and the ECB. Neutrality is all good but the main thing is giving away our liberities that people fought hard for in this country. Our consitution is being ripped apart by EU directives anymore directives and our country will be a shadow of itself. The same is happening in the USA at the moment, policies are being changed not by governments but international bankers and corporations to suit their own needs.

The EU is actually so similar to America its unbelievable and I see only bad times ahead for all Europeans if that is the case. We are not being run by governments anymore who are just puppets to the large corporations and international bankers.

[Juan]

You shouldnt be allowed to vote.

Controversial I know but I think I could actually almost stand by that.

We ALL shouldnt be voting. Not controversial:)

[elvis]

ement and the Dail) we could never ever ever be overruled on defence issues. I hate when people vote on a hugely important treaty for the country's future on the basis of a lies.

I will never ever question someones political preferences what party they are for or whether they are left or right wing I don't care. But someone give me a good reason to vote no. Anyways it's probably too late now.

Someone give us a good reason to Vote Yes,. Rather than people voting yes on the basis of a lie,. Both sides have lied,. if this was such a good thing, why couldn't someone just come out and simply say, this happens if we vote yes, and this happens if we vote no,. No lies, just the truth, and seeing as everyone had to lie, its either totally awesome or totally sh!t. There are too many people in this country who are not bothered with politics or voting, or reading. Anytime someone asks what is it about, or what should I do or why should I vote yes/no, all they get is a back lack, of go and read it for yourself etc etc,. What about blind people, dyslexic people, people with reading disorders, people without access to the internet, they cant avail of the treaty so easily let alone read it,. SO where do these 'normal' people stand? Who is going to help them? Where is their decision being based? Lies is where, because no one has the decency to speak the truth, myself included, everything these days is biased, newspapers and tv stations either all yes or all no, wheres the neutral station or newspaper,. Anyway its way too late to try and even change peoples minds,. but someone needs to start standing up for people who cant and wont bother to learn what its about, so they are not just subjected to lies and therefore surrendering their vote.

[Liverpool-law]

but someone needs to start standing up for people who cant and wont bother to learn what its about

No, no they don't. People who won't bother to learn what its about?? :eek: Those people deserve whatever they end up with. There's people dying every day for the right to be able to partake in the democractic process.

[scousepaddy]

No, no they don't. People who won't bother to learn what its about?? :eek: Those people deserve whatever they end up with. There's people dying every day for the right to be able to partake in the democractic process.


+1

If you dont vote you have no right to complain about the outcome

[elvis]

No, no they don't. People who won't bother to learn what its about?? :eek: Those people deserve whatever they end up with. There's people dying every day for the right to be able to partake in the democractic process.

Fair point, but I was more so talking about the people who cant learn what its about, and vote either yes or no, purely based on the lies, or based on what happened the last time around,. I personally know some people who are voting yes this time, as they voted no last time and we got a recession, these people are people who dont deserve to vote, or at least end up with what they deserve. I just think if the information was straight forward and no lies, the whole process would go along smoother,. Why the need for all the lies?


Also I voted no, but I seen a campaign poster last night, which said, 'for god vote no!', I thought that was disgraceful tactics.

[scousepaddy]

Fair point, but I was more so talking about the people who cant learn what its about, and vote either yes or no, purely based on the lies, or based on what happened the last time around,. I personally know some people who are voting yes this time, as they voted no last time and we got a recession, these people are people who dont deserve to vote, or at least end up with what they deserve. I just think if the information was straight forward and no lies, the whole process would go along smoother,. Why the need for all the lies?

Also I voted no, but I seen a campaign poster last night, which said, 'for god vote no!', I thought that was disgraceful tactics.

what do you mean by cant learn about it mate?

[elvis]

What about blind people, dyslexic people, people with reading disorders, people without access to the internet, they cant avail of the treaty so easily let alone read it,.

These people cant go and read the treaty or learn about it in depth. And id say most of them base their vote on the posters and/or the media. I know I'm making presumptions, but thats the way I see things.

[scousepaddy]

These people cant go and read the treaty or learn about it in depth. And id say most of them base their vote on the posters and/or the media. I know I'm making presumptions, but thats the way I see things.

im not saying your wrong i just wasnt sure what you meant by it mate!!

[elvis]

im not saying your wrong i just wasnt sure what you meant by it mate!!

I know that, its grand. I'm very interested in all this jazz and i'm fairly intelligent, and I had trouble reading the Lisbon Treaty, mind you I didn't read most of it, but I gave it a fair go. But it wasn't easy for me, so what chance do, blind disabled, dyslexic, reading disorders, people who dropped out of school, have?
Little or none I'd say. Anyway i'm sure its well too late for me to be going on about all this, I may bring it up earlier before we vote on Lisbon 3 or Maastricht 2. :D

[sultana]

Someone give us a good reason to Vote Yes,. Rather than people voting yes on the basis of a lie,. Both sides have lied,. if this was such a good thing, why couldn't someone just come out and simply say, this happens if we vote yes, and this happens if we vote no,. No lies, just the truth, and seeing as everyone had to lie, its either totally awesome or totally sh!t. There are too many people in this country who are not bothered with politics or voting, or reading. Anytime someone asks what is it about, or what should I do or why should I vote yes/no, all they get is a back lack, of go and read it for yourself etc etc,. What about blind people, dyslexic people, people with reading disorders, people without access to the internet, they cant avail of the treaty so easily let alone read it,. SO where do these 'normal' people stand? Who is going to help them? Where is their decision being based? Lies is where, because no one has the decency to speak the truth, myself included, everything these days is biased, newspapers and tv stations either all yes or all no, wheres the neutral station or newspaper,. Anyway its way too late to try and even change peoples minds,. but someone needs to start standing up for people who cant and wont bother to learn what its about, so they are not just subjected to lies and therefore surrendering their vote.

I understand and agree with most of what youre saying.

I thought this was a good article from the times on why to vote yes for those who are eurosceptics:

The treaty defines the nature of our membership and of our relationship with our partners in what has been and remains for this State an enormously important and beneficial common project. The EU has helped to lay the basis of our economic and social transformation and has brought down barriers across a continent, opening extraordinary opportunities for travel and education of our young and for business. It has provided an international platform for Ireland to find its “place among the nations”, to establish a separate identity from the British, and in the process has contributed significantly to peace on this island. In the wake of a century marked by Europe’s bloodiest wars, it seems extraordinary to have to restate that the EU provides a unique, first-of-its-kind, democratic model for peaceful reconciliation, balancing the interests of sovereign nations large and small, an important counterweight economically and politically to great power rivalry.

At a time when Ireland needs more than ever to be at the heart of Europe, the danger is that rejection will qualitatively change that relationship. There is no such thing as a free lunch. There will be a price. This is not the time for Ireland to be isolated, to go it alone.

At the very least Ireland would pay through its relative marginalisation politically, institutionally and economically. Politically because of the weakening of Ireland’s standing as a core member and of the goodwill that engendered and which has done us proud. Solidarity in the councils of the union cuts two ways. Institutionally, because our partners will want to press ahead and will seek to devise new ways of reinforcing their mutual co-operation, if necessary leaving Ireland in some form of semi-detached status. That could be through new opt-outs by Ireland or the evolution of a second-tier system of membership. Economically, Ireland would suffer because of the doubts a No would conjure up among foreign investors in relation to our commitment to the European market and in terms of the price we will pay to borrow money.

Ireland’s place is at the heart of this Europe, contributing our genius to this great, imperfect project as much as drawing from it. Europe needs us. We never needed Europe more than now. It is overwhelmingly in the interest of citizens to vote Yes on Friday.


We have no concrete reasons to vote no only lies as in most cases, or in the case of Joe Higgins a completely anti capitalism, anti establishment ideology that although honest won't serve the national interest.

And I would add after 36 years Europe (it has nothing to do with Cowen or FF) has earned our trust.

[Venom1983]

Great post sultana

[MrsPepe]

Everone vote?

[serpheus]

Everone vote?

Sure did, i voted yes!!

[denashpot]

Everone vote?

Voted NO. A few others i know voted NO as well thankfully.

How bout you Lally?

[MR KING KENNY]

paddy power have the yes at 10-1 on, do they know something

[CF999]

I can't believe some of the idiots I've listened to today.

"I'm voting x".
"Why?"
"Dunno sure I have to vote something, I'm not too bothered anyway"

"Voting yes sure it can't get worse than it is now"

"Voting no because of conscription/abortion/other rule I don't have the slightest f*cking clue about"

And of course the great old...

"Mightn't vote, sure what difference is my one vote going to make".

[denashpot]

I can't believe some of the idiots I've listened to today.

"I'm voting x".
"Why?"
"Dunno sure I have to vote something, I'm not too bothered anyway"

"Voting yes sure it can't get worse than it is now"

"Voting no because of conscription/abortion/other rule I don't have the slightest f*cking clue about"

And of course the great old...

"Mightn't vote, sure what difference is my one vote going to make".


The joys of democracy!

[JOE]

Voted Yes of course...

The exit polls look good at the moment!

[marathonman]

I can't believe some of the idiots I've listened to today.

"I'm voting x".
"Why?"
"Dunno sure I have to vote something, I'm not too bothered anyway"

"Voting yes sure it can't get worse than it is now"

"Voting no because of conscription/abortion/other rule I don't have the slightest f*cking clue about"

And of course the great old...

"Mightn't vote, sure what difference is my one vote going to make".

you think it 's just Lisbon then tell me how did FF get in for 3 consecutive terms with what they were doing to the country. Sheep.

[Raven136]

If the exit polls stay the same,i want a rerun.I voted No and lost so i take it we are going again.Thats how it works isnt it?

[JOE]

If the exit polls stay the same,i want a rerun.I voted No and lost so i take it we are going again.Thats how it works isnt it?

The executive can only refer a referendum to the people...The same executive
voted for by the people...

[Raven136]

The executive can only refer a referendum to the people...The same executive
voted for by the people...

I thought it was best of 3:D.Score stands one all now.

[Paul]

I thought it was best of 3:D.Score stands one all now.

I think it's 2-1 to the yes side after they got 11 of the 12 seats available during the european elections ;)

[denashpot]

Fcuking joke of a country. When we voted NO the first time that should of been it. Instead we have a 2nd vote and people give in to the FF scum the idiots!

[bryanod]

Fcuking joke of a country. When we voted NO the first time that should of been it. Instead we have a 2nd vote and people give in to the FF scum the idiots!

How many abortion votes has there been?


Finally some sense, maybe there is some hope for the country.

[denashpot]

How many abortion votes has there been?


Finally some sense, maybe there is some hope for the country.

No hope for this country while its been run by idiots!

[rev]

No hope for this country while its been run by idiots!

+1

[elvis]

How many abortion votes has there been?


Finally some sense, maybe there is some hope for the country.

People cant use abortion and divorce everytime, someone says we shouldn't have voted a second time,. There was 10 years between the forst and second divorce vote, and abortion is about choice,most of the people who voted on abortion wont have a baby, no man will ever have a baby, so why should we decide, what if a young girl is raped, should she not have a choice to live the rest of her life without a constant reminder of the person who raped her and ruined her life,. Our country is run by idiots, and today showed that our vote doesn't count, and I for one am extremely annoyed at the outcome,. And more so at people who didn't bother to vote and people who changed their mind, your vote is your voice, what would people think if one week you slated something then the next you loved it, they would call you a hypocrite,. The whole system is a joke,.


Now i'll just wait for the abuse to roll in from the yes side of the vote,.

[reddave]

think fear was a big factor in the turn around...with the current sate of the country (recession extra) people are afraid that we could lose some the benefits of the EU.

think cowen etc ran a fairly good campaign this time around.

[elvis]

think fear was a big factor in the turn around...with the current sate of the country (recession extra) people are afraid that we could lose some the benefits of the EU.

think cowen etc ran a fairly good campaign this time around.

That cant happen,. or wouldn't have happened.

How can they amend a constitution with a vote thats non representative and that was previously rejected. Like what do you say to people who voted NO and think they live in a democracy, why would most of them ever bother voting again?

[reddave]

i know that we cant lose some the benefits of the EU with a no vote..but i don't think every one did know that. any one that i know that changed their vote did so because of this fear. Not my own opinion but that of some of the people that i work with.

[elvis]

i know that we cant lose some the benefits of the EU with a no vote..but i don't think every one did know that. any one that i know that changed their vote did so because of this fear. Not my own opinion but that of some of the people that i work with.

Oh, sorry, I completely misunderstood you the first time, my bad,. Yeah I agree with you on that point. Most people were scared into voting YES. Its done with now, and they got what they want so they dont care about us or need us anymore. Maybe Tony Blair can do better as the new President of Europe. Ha! :D

[JOE]

That cant happen,. or wouldn't have happened.

How can they amend a constitution with a vote thats non representative and that was previously rejected. Like what do you say to people who voted NO and think they live in a democracy, why would most of them ever bother voting again?

Serious question here...do you actually know the history re constitutional referenda in this country? Because if you did you'd know that there have been many previous revised votes. Perhaps the people were not informed the first time, perhaps not...

The point is, it's permitted by the constitution to have a revised referendum...if the drafters in 1937 didn't want it that way, they would have restricted the section...

Just as an example, the divorce referendum was rejected the first time. Do you think there shouldn't have been a vote?

[Alex Raisbeck]

Am very happy with the Yes result.
At the end of teh day, people in the No camp are probably disappointed after losing out in a repeat, but at the end of the day the terms of the Treaty were changed and it is essentially a different vote to the previous.
Anyway Im made up.

[Liverpool-law]

Great vote for the future of this country, for common sense, and for people who voted on the Treaty and not some misguided begrudging vendetta against the government which had nothing to do with the issues. A more democratic Europe is in everyone's interests. This government won't last another six months but the Treaty will help change Europe for the future. Some people were too short-sighted to see that, at the risk of biting off their nose to spite their face. Luckily those were in a 2-1 minority.

[ronnie10]

Everyone who voted Yes will have no right to complain now when the country gets even worse than it is now.

[SUPERFAN]

if the vote had been yes last year all the sh1t that has happened over the last 15 months would still have happened,probably worse.
but sure not to worry,everything's going to be fixed now.:rolleyes:

[reddave]

Everyone who voted Yes will have no right to complain now when the country gets even worse than it is now.

have to listen to all the no voters every time job losses are announced or things get worse saying that wouldn't have happened if we voted no.

have to listen to all the yes voters if things do improve even slightly saying that s because we voted yes.

[ronnie10]

have to listen to all the no voters every time job losses are announced or things get worse saying that wouldn't have happened if we voted no.

have to listen to all the yes voters if things do improve even slightly saying that s because we voted yes.

Was one of the yes campaigns not about vote yes for jobs, if there is more job loses than creation well then surely this is another empty promise.

[reddave]

that's true. just making the point that both sides will be vocal about stuff saying its because of the way the vote went.

think the voting is done and dusted ( for the good or bad of the country. depending on how you feel.) and hope we just get on with it and not keep harping on about it.

(not saying anyone here is harping on. its too soon after ithe vote anyway. just think it will get annoying listening to it for months and months.

[ronnie10]

that's true. just making the point that both sides will be vocal about stuff saying its because of the way the vote went.

think the voting is done and dusted ( for the good or bad of the country. depending on how you feel.) and hope we just get on with it and not keep harping on about it.

(not saying anyone here is harping on. its too soon after ithe vote anyway. just think it will get annoying listening to it for months and months.

I agree, thank god its over, may forget about it no and lets hope it actually does what it was made out too.

[General]

Am very happy with the Yes result.
At the end of teh day, people in the No camp are probably disappointed after losing out in a repeat, but at the end of the day the terms of the Treaty were changed and it is essentially a different vote to the previous.
Anyway Im made up.

This is not true. The treaty was exactly the same. Waiting on that snide little pr1ck Micheal Martin to set up a commission to address the concerns of the minority i.e no voters. That's what happened after the last one!!!! We, the taxpayers paid people to conduct a survey on why people voted no in Lisbon 1. Don't know what we have but it ain't democracy!!

[rafalabamba]

This is not true. The treaty was exactly the same. Waiting on that snide little pr1ck Micheal Martin to set up a commission to address the concerns of the minority i.e no voters. That's what happened after the last one!!!! We, the taxpayers paid people to conduct a survey on why people voted no in Lisbon 1. Don't know what we have but it ain't democracy!!
exactly, i couldent realy give a sh1t what the result of this over hyped, media hyped b*llox of a treaty, the only thing that annoys me is that we voted no before so how do the eu have the right to say, 'we're not happy you said no, vote again' of a person wasnt elected a taoiseach he/she could'ent say i want another vote

[rafalabamba]

This is not true. The treaty was exactly the same. Waiting on that snide little pr1ck Micheal Martin to set up a commission to address the concerns of the minority i.e no voters. That's what happened after the last one!!!! We, the taxpayers paid people to conduct a survey on why people voted no in Lisbon 1. Don't know what we have but it ain't democracy!!
exactly, i couldent realy give a sh1t what the result of this over hyped, media hyped b*llox of a treaty was, the only thing that annoys me is that we voted no before so how do the eu have the right to say, 'we're not happy you said no, vote again' if a person wasnt elected a taoiseach he/she could'ent say i want another vote

[General]

exactly, i couldent realy give a sh1t what the result of this over hyped, media hyped b*llox of a treaty was, the only thing that annoys me is that we voted no before so how do the eu have the right to say, 'we're not happy you said no, vote again' if a person wasnt elected a taoiseach he/she could'ent say i want another vote

"Those who dare to reject the Euro federalisation agenda are buried under a vast and expensive campaign that has sought to frighten and undermine the electorate" Tom NcGurk, Sunday Business Post.
This is it in a nutshell, U.S.E here we come!!!!

[redforever]

at the end of the day it dosent really matter we are going to be shafted by whatever we went with.

just hope we can move on and see some positive signs, fingers xxxxxx

[reddave]

at the end of the day it dosent really matter we are going to be shafted by whatever we went with.

just hope we can move on and see some positive signs, fingers xxxxxx


my feelings too...decision is made be it right or wrong.. the government and the EU got what they were looking for and we are stuck with it.

all we can do now is hope that something positive comes out of it,

[Alex Raisbeck]

This is not true. The treaty was exactly the same. Waiting on that snide little pr1ck Micheal Martin to set up a commission to address the concerns of the minority i.e no voters. That's what happened after the last one!!!! We, the taxpayers paid people to conduct a survey on why people voted no in Lisbon 1. Don't know what we have but it ain't democracy!!

Oh its true alright!!
What about the commissioner and tax?